>> Bonnie Erbe: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", FIRST, PROSECUTIONS FOR TEXANS WHO TRY TO ENFORCE THE NEW BILL THAT ALMOST BANS ABORTIONS IN THE STATE?

HOW DID PRO-CHOICE ACTIVISTS SCREWUP TO GET TO THIS POINT?

>> Erin Matson: BONNIE, I DON'T LIKE THIS.

QUESTION AT ALL.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND NUTELLA BANDWIDTHS FEMALE AFGHAN PROTESTERS, CALLING FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

>> Manal Omar: VERY MUCH A MOMENT TO SHOW THE WEST IN A VERY, YOU KNOW, CONVOLUTED WAY WHO WON IN THE END.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", THE WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, ABORTION RIGHTS: THE GOVERNOR OF TEXAS HAS DEFENDED HIS STATE'S STRICT ANTIABORTION LAW, ARGUING AGAINST THE NEED FOR EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE OR INCEST.

GOVERNOR GREG ABBOTT PROMISED HE WOULD INSTEAD, QUOTE, WORK TIRELESSLY TO MAKE SURE WE ELIMINATE ALL RAPISTS FROM THE STREETS OF TEXAS, END QUOTE.

THE LAW BANS ABORTION AFTER A DOCTOR CAN DETECT HEART BEAT IN THE FETUS, TYPICALLY AROUND SIX WEEKS.

BUT MANY WOMEN DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THEY ARE PREGNANT BY THEIR SIXTH WEEK.

U.S. SUPREME COURT'S CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY REFUSED TO BLOCK THE BILL, AT LEAST 12 OTHER STATES HAVE PASSED SIMILAR LAWS BUT STILL FACE LEGAL CHALLENGES.

INCREASE GENOME, THE GOVERNOR OF SOUTH DAKOTA, IS MAKING IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR WOMEN THERE TO SEEK DOCTORS' VISITS FOR CHEMICAL OR MEDICAL ABORTIONS.

JOINING ME TODAY ARE RINA SHAH BHARARA, FORMER CONGRESSWOMAN DONNA EDWARDS, THE CENTER FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES' LINDA CHAVEZ, AND ERIN MATSON, THE COFOUNDER OF REPROACTION.

WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU.

AARON, YOU FIRST.

HOW DID PRO-CHOICE ACTIVISTS SCREWUP TO GET TO THIS POINT?

>> Erin Matson: OH, BONNIE, I DON'T THINK THAT'S A FAIR QUESTION AT ALL.

I THINK THE ISSUE IS HOW OUT OF TOUCH HAVE CONSERVATIVES GOTTEN ON ABORTION.

THE FACT IS THEY ARE WAY OVER THERE SKIS ON THIS AND WE ARE SEEING NATIONAL OUTRAGE AROUND THE COUNTRY TO THIS IDEA THAT ABORTION COULD BE PROVOKED AND LEGAL ABORTION COULD BE REVOKED.

BUT I WANTED.

POINT OUT SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT.

YOU SAW GOVERNOR CHRISTIE KNOWN OUT OF SOUTH DAKOTA IMMEDIATELY RESPONDED TO THE TEXAS' SIX-WEEK ABORTION BEEN BEFORE MANY PEOPLE EVEN KNOW THEY ARE PREGNANT, BY THE WAY.

SHE RESPONDED TO THAT WITH RESTRICTIONS ON TELEMEDICINE ABORTION IN HER STATE.

I WANT TO SAY -- >> Bonnie Erbe: SHE IS MAKING IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR WOMEN TO USE RU4 86, OR PLAN B, IF THEY LIVE IN SOUTH DAKOTA.

>> Erin Matson: SHE IN TERMS OF MEDICAL ABORTION, PLAN B IS ACTUALLY EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION THE STAFFS PREGNANCY FROM OCCURRING.

BUT HERE'S THE DEAL: GOVERNOR KRISTI NOEM AND THE ANTIABORTION PERIOD, THEY KNOW THAT ABORTION IS UNSTOPPABLE AND THEY CAN BAN ABORTION, THEY CAN KEEP THROWING PEOPLE IN JAIL.

THEY CAN STICK BOUNTY HUNTERS ON PEOPLE LIKE THEY HAVE IN TEXAS, BUT THEY CANNOT PUT ABORTION PILLS BACK IN THE BOTTLE.

WE ARE IN A DIFFERENT ERA.

SINCE THE PRE ROAD DAYS.

MEDICATION ABORTION IS SAFE, IT IS EFFECTIVE.

WE HAVE REAMS OF DATA FROM OVERSEAS WHERE ABORTION IS EXTREMELY RESTRICTIVE, SHOWING THAT PEOPLE CAN SAFELY AND EFFECTIVELY USE IT TO END THEIR PREGNANCIES.

SO I THINK THAT'S WHERE DESPERATE GRASP BY THE GOVERNOR OF SOUTH DAKOTA.

WELL, IT'S CERTAINLY VERY HARMFUL TO ABORTION ACCESS -- >> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

LET'S GET RINA IN HERE ON THIS.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> Rina Shah Bharara: GOOD, GOOD.

I'VE BEEN A PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN FOR A LONG TIME AND MY ANSWER TO FOLKS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT I'M PRO LIFE FOR MYSELF.

I'M PRO CHOICE FOR OTHER WOMEN AND -- >> Bonnie Erbe: YOU AND MARIO CUOMO, WHO IS NO LONGER WITH US .

>> Rina Shah Bharara: INDEED, INDEED, THE CUOMO ANSWER, AS IT'S BEEN DUBBED FOR A LONG TIME, RIGHT?

I MEAN, BUT TO THINK OF IT THIS WAY, THE VERY FACT WE HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT MASKS AND WE'VE SEEN THE SIGNS THAT RULES OUT, MY BODY MY CHOICE, IT'S THE SAME ARGUMENT FOR ACCESS TO ABORTION SERVICES.

IF A WOMAN WANTS TO TERMINATE A PREGNANCY, TO ME, THAT'S A VERY PERSONAL DECISION BETWEEN HER AND HER DOCTOR.

IT'S ALSO BETWEEN HER AND HER GOD AND SHE MAY NOT EVEN BELIEVE IN GOD, AND THAT'S FINE TOO.

THAT IS A FREEDOM WE HAVE IN AMERICA IS WOMEN -- >> Bonnie Erbe: BUT TELL ME ABOUT CONSERVATIVES WHO ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE TEXAS LAW.

I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL OF THEM, WELL-KNOWN CONSERVATIVE MEN SAY WE DID NOT WANT THIS.

WE DID NOT WANT THE CRAZINESS THAT THIS LAW, APPOINTING VIGILANTES, PAYING THEM STATE DOLLARS TO GO AFTER PEOPLE.

WE DIDN'T WANT THIS.

IS NOT CONSTITUTIONAL, AND IT SHOULD NOT BE THERE.

>> Rina Shah Bharara: MORE THAN THE CRAZINESS, BONNIE, IS THE CRUELTY.

IT SEEMS THAT THIS WAS REALLY INTENDED TO PUNISH WOMEN AND ALL THOSE AROUND THEM THAT MAY HAVE SOME HAND IN HELPING THAT WOMAN.

ACCESS TO ABORTION SERVICES, AND THAT IS CRUELTY.

ALSO THE CRUELTY IT SEEMS THAT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE VICTIMS OF INCEST AND RAPE AND THAT'S WHAT WE HEARD GOVERNOR GREG ABBOTT SAY WHAT HE SAID THIS PAST WEEK.

SO I THINK WE LIVE IN AN ERA WHEN IT'S NOT -- TO ME PUT IT THIS WAY: IT CERTAINLY WAS NOT ON MY BINGO CARD FOR 2021, TO HEAR THE ABORTION DEBATE COME BACK SO RED-HOT BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN TEXAS.

BUT IT'S NOT UNCOMMON TO HEAR CONSERVATIVES SAY THAT THEY ARE FINE WITH WOMEN GOING TO SEEK ABORTIONS IN THE CASES OF INCEST AND RAPE, THAT'S ACTUALLY BEEN STANDARD FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

DONNA, YOU ARE A DEMOCRATIC PARTY INSIDER.

I REMEMBER THE DAYS IN THE '70s RIGHT AFTER ROE V WADE WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE SUPREME COURT WHEN WOMEN FELT VERY SECURE IN THEIR RIGHT TO ABORTION.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS -- I'VE DONE A LOT OF REPORTING ON THIS, TAKEN ABACK, DID NOT SEE ROE COMING.

AND EVER SINCE THEN, THE CHURCH AND THE EVANGELICALS, THE ANTIABORTION RELIGIOUS FORCES, BECAUSE LET'S BE REAL, THIS IS A RELIGIOUS WAR, HAVE BEEN MAKING INCREMENTAL GAINS AND NOW THEY CONTROL THE SITUATION.

WHY DIDN'T PRO-CHOICE DEMOCRATS USE SOME KIND OF METHODOLOGY THAT WOULD HAVE TURNED THE COUNTRY MORE PRO-CHOICE IS OPPOSING -- AS OPPOSED TO LOSING THE SUPPORT OF A LOT OF AMERICANS?

>> Donna Edwards: LET'S BE CLEAR: AMERICANS ACTUALLY ARE OVERWHELMINGLY PRO-CHOICE.

A MAJORITY, A STRONG MAJORITY OF AMERICANS SUPPORT THE PRECEPTS OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT ON ABORTION ENSHRINED IN REVIEW WADE.

ON THE POLITICAL END, THAT IS WHERE THE CHALLENGE IS, AND I AGREE.

I REMEMBER MANY YEARS AGO, ACTUALLY STANDING ON THE CORNER OF PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE WHEN ABORTION RESTRICTIONS WERE IMPOSED AGAINST POOR WOMEN WHO ARE NO LONGER ABLE TO USE PUBLIC BENEFITS TO GET AN ABORTION.

THAT WAS THE SLIPPERY SLOPE.

AND WE HAVE TO FIGHT BACK.

AND I THINK RIGHT NOW, THE ONUS IS GOING TO BE ON PARTICULARLY ON THE DEMOCRATS IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE TO CODIFY ROE V. WADE, AND THAT IS A VERY HEAVY LIFT AT THIS STAGE.

BUT IS NOT BECAUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DO NOT SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT A WOMAN SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT SHE DOES WITH HER BODY AND HAS A RIGHT TO AN ABORTION.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SO, LINDA, IS THIS TYRANNY OF THE MINORITY?

>> Linda Chavez: WELL, I WILL TELL YOU ONE THING: I THINK THAT REPUBLICANS WERE TOO CLEVER BY HALF WITH THIS BILL.

I THINK WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IS MOTIVATE PARTICULARLY YOUNG PEOPLE AND YOUNG WOMEN TO GO TO THE POLLS.

ABORTION, WHICH HAS OFTEN BEEN FOUGHT -- >> Bonnie Erbe: YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT YOUNG DEMOCRATS TO VOTE -- HIS EX NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT YOUNG WOMEN IN GENERAL INCLUDING SOME -- RINA IS NOT THE ONLY PRO-CHOICE REPUBLICAN OUT THERE.

I THINK -- LOOK, YES, AMERICA HAS GENERALLY BEEN IN FAVOR OF ABORTION UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.

THEY MAY NOT HAVE GONE AS FAR AS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY PLATFORM USED TO GO, WHICH IS BASICALLY FROM BIRTH, CONCEPTION TO BIRTH, ABORTION WAS AVAILABLE.

THEY HAVE BEEN RESTRICTIONS PUT IN PLACE, AND SOME OF THOSE RESTRICTIONS ARE RESTRICTIONS THAT AMERICANS SUPPORT INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE CALLED PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTIONS ARE VERY LATE TERM ABORTIONS, WHICH, BY THE WAY, THEY ARE NOT VERY MANY OF THOSE THAT ARE -- >> Bonnie Erbe: IT'S A TOTAL RED HERRING, IT'S A RED HERRING.

>> Linda Chavez: BUT MY POINT IS THERE IS A KIND OF MIDDLE GROUND.

I THINK MOST AMERICANS, THEY MAY NOT THINK IT'S MORAL, THEY MAY NOT LIKE THE PRACTICE, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO OUT LAW, PARTICULARLY IN THE FIRST TERM.

AND I THINK THIS TEXAS LAW IS BIZARRE.

YOUR ESSENTIALLY CREATING A TORT THAT DOES NOT EXIST.

AND MEAN, IF I DON'T LIKE IT BECAUSE SOME WOMAN IN TEXAS IS GETTING AN ABORTION, WHAT DAMAGES DONE TO ME THAT I CAN GO AND CLAIM $10,000?

I MEAN THIS IS A -- >> Bonnie Erbe: BUT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ANNOUNCED LATE THIS WEEK THAT IT WAS GOING TO START PROSECUTING, WHICH WAS A SIGNAL THAT THE ABORTION RIGHTS MOVEMENT WANTED MERRICK GARLAND, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, TO SEND TO TEXANS WHO WOULD BE THE ANGELES.

WITH THIS BE ENOUGH, ERIN, DO YOU THINK TO BACK THEM OFF FROM TRYING TO PROSECUTE, YOU KNOW, FROM BEING EVENTUALLY VIGILANTES, FROM TAKING THE LAW INTO THEIR OWN HANDS?

>> Erin Matson: I WOULD NEVER COUNT ON THE HUMANITY OF THE ANTIABORTION GROUP, BONNIE.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN EVERY TURN IS THAT THEY ARE EXTREMELY VICIOUS TOWARD PEOPLE AND THEIR RIGHT TO CONTROL THEIR OWN DESTINIES.

I THINK THAT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IN TEXAS OR WHAT'S COMING OUT OF TEXAS, WE'RE GOING TO SEE HAPPEN IN A NUMBER OF STATES AROUND THE COUNTRY THAT ARE GOING TO COPYCAT BECAUSE THIS ROGUE SUPREME COURT ALLOWED THIS CLEARLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW TO GO INTO EFFECT IN THE DARK OF NIGHT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: TOLD ME, TELL ME AND TELL THE AUDIENCE WHAT EXACTLY ABOUT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

>> Erin Matson: SURE.

WILL A SIX-WEEK ABORTION BAN CLEARLY VIOLATES ROE VERSUS WADE.

IN FACT, THE SUPREME COURT IS DUE TO HERE IS 15 WEEK ABORTION BAN UPCOMING THIS FALL.

AND SO, THEY ARE CONTESTING THE CONSTITUTIONALLY OF THAT WHILE LEADING THE SIX-WEEK BAN GOING TO AFFECT IN TEXAS FOR WHAT THEY CLAIM ARE PROCEDURAL REASONS, BUT LET'S BE REAL: THIS IS WHAT TRUMP PROMISED, THIS IS WHAT CONSERVATIVES COUNTED ON HIM TO DELIVER.

AMY CONEY BARRETT WAS INSTALLED TO DELIVER THE RESULT THAT WE NOW SEE, THIS CATASTROPHIC HORROR IN TEXAS, THAT IS ESPECIALLY IMPACTING LOW INCOME PEOPLE AND PEOPLE OF COLOR.

>> Linda Chavez: CAN I JUST HAPPEN HERE, BONNIE, FOR A SECOND, BECAUSE I DON'T ACTUALLY AGREE THAT WHAT THE SUPREME COURT DID LAST WEEK WAS ALL THAT UNUSUAL?

THE PROBLEM IS THIS LAW IS SO OUT OF THE BALANCE IN TERMS OF NORMAL LEGAL PRECEDENTS THAT THE ABORTION PROVIDERS DID NOT EVEN KNOW WHOM TO SUE, BECAUSE THERE HAVE NOT YET BEEN THE BAN.

SOMEONE HAD NOT TRIED TO INTERFERE WITH THE PERSON BEING ABLE TO OBTAIN AN ABORTION.

AND SO, THEY BASICALLY SAID WE DON'T YET HAVE A CASE.

SO, YOU KNOW, I AM NOT AT ALL CERTAIN THAT ALL SIX OF THE, YOU KNOW, CONSERVATIVES ON THE COURT WOULD VOTE TO UPHOLD THIS LAW.

I DON'T THINK THAT YOU ARE -- THEY ARE REFUSING TO HEAR THE CASE.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT BACK DURING THE DEBATE OVER THE RIGHT OF HOMOSEXUALS TO MARRY, THE COURT REFUSED TO HEAR A CASE THERE WERE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATES WERE BEING DENIED INTO THE COURT ULTIMATELY DECIDED THAT THERE WAS A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: RIGHT.

IN THEIR ARE THREE RELIABLE LIBERALS ON THE COURT AND IT'S EXPECTED THAT CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS WOULD JOIN THEM JUST TO STOP THE CHAOS THAT COULD ENSUE IF THE COUNTRY THINKS THAT WOMEN'S ABORTION RIGHTS ARE AT ISSUE IN THE DAMAGE POSSIBLY TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AT THE ELECTORAL -- AT THE POLLS.

BUT LET ME GET TO THAT.

WE ARE IN AN OFF YEAR ELECTION NOW.

IN VIRGINIA, MY HOME STATE WHERE TERRY McAULIFFE, THE FORMER GOVERNOR, IS BEING CHALLENGED BY AN UNKNOWN, A GUY NAMED YOUNG KEN, WHO IS PRETTY MUCH FOLLOWING EVERYTHING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP FOLLOWED IN TERMS OF POLICY AND PARTICULARLY ON ABORTION.

TERRY McAULIFFE IS NOW CAMPAIGNING, SAYING IT IF YOU ELECT HIM, THERE GOES ABORTION IN VIRGINIA.

AND ABORTION HAS NEVER BEEN OR HASN'T BEEN FOR SINCE LITERALLY DECADES AGO AN ISSUE UPON WHICH WOMEN RELIABLY VOTED.

THEY CARE MUCH MORE ABOUT THINGS LIKE FEELING SECURE IN THEIR HOMES, HAVING AN ECONOMY THAT'S PROVIDING JOBS AND IS KEEPING THINGS GOING ECONOMICALLY.

SO IS THIS THE TIME, ERIN WHERE YOU THINK -- I'M SORRY, DONNA, WHEN YOU THINK THAT FINALLY WOMEN ARE GOING TO START VOTING ON ABORTION BECAUSE THEY WANT TO RESERVE IT?

THEY SEE IT GOING DOWN THE DRAIN.

>> Donna Edwards: WELL, I THINK PART OF THE REASON THAT ABORTION HAS NOT BEEN SORT OF FRONT AND CENTER ON THE BALLOT IS BECAUSE IT'S NEVER BEEN ON THE BALLOT LIKE IT WILL BE RIGHT NOW, AND I THINK LINDA'S POINT, THIS IS A GIFT, REALLY, TO DEMOCRATS WHO ARE RUNNING BECAUSE THEY SHARE THE SENTIMENT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

AND I THINK IT WILL BE GALVANIZING PARTICULARLY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE, FOR YOUNG WOMEN, BUT ALSO FOR YOUNG MEN.

THE FIRST PHONE CALL I GOT WHEN THE STATE OF TEXAS CASE CAME OUT WAS FROM MY SON WHO SUPPORT A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

AND SO, I THINK THIS CAN BE QUITE MOTIVATING AT THE POLLS AND, YOU KNOW, DEMOCRATS JUST GOT A GIFT, SET AS IT IS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

WE ARE OUT OF TIME ON THIS TOPIC.

ERIN MATSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> FROM TEXAS TO AFGHANISTAN: TALIBAN FIGHTERS HAVE RESPONDED TO PROTESTS FROM AFGHAN WOMEN WHO DON'T WANT THEIR HARD-WON RIGHTS STOLEN FROM THEM WITH WHITES AND STICKS.

THIS IS THE LATEST IN A SERIES OF CRACKDOWNS BY THE NEW ALL-MALE HARD-LINE GOVERNMENT.

WOMEN ROUTINELY WORKED WHILE THE U.S. WAS OCCUPYING AFGHANISTAN, AND MANY HOLD IMPORTANT POSITIONS IN GOVERNMENT: BANKING, LAW, MEDICINE, AND ACADEMIA.

NOW THESE WOMEN ARE BEING TOLD TO RETURN HOME.

THE PROTESTS ERUPTED AFTER THE U.S.

WITHDREW FROM AFGHANISTAN SHORTLY BEFORE THE 20TH ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11.

MEANWHILE AT HOME, FAMILIES OF VICTIMS FROM THE 2001 ATTACKS ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER GRIEVED FOR THEIR LOST LOVED ONES.

JOINING OUR PANEL NOW IS MANAL OMAR, FOUNDER OF ACROSS REDLINES.

THANK YOU, MANAL, FOR JOINING US.

PLEASE TELL US, WHAT HAPPENS TO AFGHAN WOMEN NOW?

>> Manal Omar: WELL, I THINK WE ARE BACK, BONNIE, TO SEEING AFGHAN WOMEN ON THE POLITICAL STAGE IN TERMS OF THEATRICS BOTH FROM U.S.

POLITICS EUROPEAN TO AFGHANISTAN, EVERYONE IS SOMEHOW INVOLVED.

YOU MENTIONED BEFORE IN THE PREVIOUS SEGMENT ABOUT RELIGION'S WAR ON WOMEN.E ARE SEEING A DIFFERENT FORM PLAY OUT IN AFGHANISTAN, AND I WOULD SAY THE WAR ON WOMEN IN GENERAL WITH RELIGION IS ONE OF THE TOOLS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

THESE AFGHAN HE WOMEN ARE PROTESTS -- I HEARD AN INTERVIEW WITH ONE WHO SAID, WE ARE GOING TO DO THIS WHETHER WE ARE WOUNDED, WHETHER WE DIE.

AND WITH THE TALIBAN AND POWER, EVEN THOUGH THEY PROMISED A MORE LENIENT GOVERNMENT, DO SEE THAT COMING TO FRUITION?

>> Manal Omar: I DON'T SEE IT COMING TO FRUITION BECAUSE WE HAVE A WHOLE PROBLEM OF DEFINITIONS, RIGHT?

FROM THE BEGINNING, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT ISLAMIC LAW THEY'RE DISCUSSING.

IN TERMS OF LINEAR OR NOT LENIENT.

WE'VE SEEN VERY MONOLITHIC, STRICT INTERPRETATIONS COME FROM THE TALIBAN, AND THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT THEY WANT TO DO SO.

AND IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT NOT TO LOOK AT IT AS WOMEN AND RELIGION, THIS IS VERY MUCH A MOMENT TO SHOW THE WEST IN A VERY, YOU KNOW, CONVOLUTED WAY WHO WON IN THE END.

AND YOU SEE THAT FROM THE APPOINTMENTS AS WELL.

SOME OF THE PEOPLE APPOINTED TO THOSE IN ROME TALIBAN GOVERNMENT WERE AMONG THE MOST WANTED.

SO IT'S A RANCH IN YOUR FACE TYPE OF A POLICY, AND WENT IN KNOWING HOW SENSITIVE IT IS IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL WAYS FOR THE TALIBAN TO PUT THE WORLD IN PERSPECTIVE IN TERMS OF WHO ACTUALLY WON THE 20 YEAR WAR.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

AND YOU, DONNA EDWARDS, WHILE YOU ARE IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, YOU WENT TO AFGHANISTAN FOUR TIMES.

YOU MET WITH THE NGO WOMEN LEADERS THERE.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK IS HAPPENING TO THEM.

WHAT HAVE YOU HEARD FROM THEM, IF ANYTHING?

AND HOW DO THEY MOVE FORWARD?

>> Donna Edwards: WELL, I THINK THAT MANAL HIT IT RIGHT ON THE HEAD, AND THAT IS THAT THE TALIBAN IS THE SAME OLD TALIBAN.

THEY MIGHT, YOU KNOW, PORTRAY THEMSELVES OR TRY TO PORTRAY THEMSELVES SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY, BUT WE CAN SEE THE WAY THEY ARE BEHAVING ON THE GROUND.

THE REALITY IS THAT FROM YEARS BACK WHEN THE NEGOTIATIONS FIRST BEGAN WITH THE TALIBAN, WOMEN LEADERS WERE EXCLUDED FROM THOSE EARLY NEGOTIATIONS.

AND SO, IT IS NOT A SURPRISE AT ALL THAT THE TALIBAN HAS INSTITUTED ITS NEW MINISTERS, WHO ARE ALL MEN AND SOME OF THE MOST HEINOUS ACTORS WITHIN THE TALIBAN.

AND SO, I HAVE HEARD FROM SOME OF MY, YOU KNOW, FORMER COLLEAGUES, I WILL DESCRIBE THEM, FORMER WOMEN PARLIAMENTARIANS, NGO LEADERS, AND I FEAR FOR THEM.

BUT WE ALSO HAVE A NEW GENERATION OF WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN WHO FOR 20 YEARS HAVE BEEN BUSINESS LEADERS, THEY'VE BEEN IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THEY'VE BEEN IN EVERY SECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AND THEY ARE EDUCATED.

AND I THINK THAT WE HAVE A NEW GENERATION OF ACTIVISTS WHO ARE NOT GOING TO LET UP AND WILL CONTINUE TO LET THE WORLD SEE THE TALIBAN FOR WHAT IT IS, AND THERE HAS TO BE PRESSURE FROM THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER ALLIED GOVERNMENTS PUT ON AFGHANISTAN.

YOU KNOW, NOT RELEASING THEIR MONEY AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO HOLD AFGHAN WOMEN DOWN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

BUT WHAT SPECIFICALLY DO YOU BELIEVE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT OWES TO AFGHAN WOMEN?

BECAUSE THE TALIBAN CAN LIVE WITHOUT OUR MONEY.

THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY OFF DRUGS.

THEY ARE DRUG TRAFFICKERS, OF THE WORST SORT.

SO WE CAN WITHHOLD FUNDS, WE CAN LOCK UP THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS, WHAT HAVE YOU.HEY ARE STILL GOING TO BE THERE.

WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT THAT?

WHAT DO WE HAVE A DUTY TO DO ABOUT THAT?

>> Linda Chavez: I THINK WE HAVE A DUTY, BONNIE, TO ADMIT AS MANY WOMEN FROM AFGHANISTAN WHO WANT TO COME HERE, TO ALLOW THEM TO COME.

I MEAN, I REALLY BELIEVE THAT -- A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY, WELL, THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN, $2 TRILLION, MAYBE EVEN $4 TRILLION, WE DIDN'T ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING.

I'M SORRY, WE DID ACCOMPLISH ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING: WE EDUCATED A WHOLE GENERATION OF GIRLS AND WOMEN.

WE GAVE THEM AN IDEA THAT THEY COULD BE SOMETHING MORE THAN PRISONERS IN THEIR HOME SUBJECT TO THE WHIMS OF THEIR MALE FAMILY MEMBERS.

AND SO, I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT AND I THINK DONNA IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, THAT THE TALIBAN, THEY HAVE NOT CHANGED, BUT THE COUNTRY HAS CHANGED.

HALF OF THE POPULATION HAS CHANGED.

NOW, NOW NOT ALL OF THE GIRLS IN AFGHANISTAN AND SOME OF THE SMALL VILLAGES, ETC., WERE ABLE TO MODERNIZE AND GET EDUCATED, BUT MANY WERE.

AND SO, I THINK THAT ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT THIS COUNTRY IS WE HAVE TAKEN IN REFUGEES.

WE HAVE ALLOWED PEOPLE WHO ARE FLEEING OPPRESSION TO COME HERE.

AND I WOULD HOPE THAT IN ADDITION TO GIVING THE SIV SPECIAL IMMIGRANT VISAS TO PEOPLE WHO AIDED THE U.S.

IN AFGHANISTAN, BUT WE ALSO GREAT A SPECIAL VISA FOR YOUNG WOMEN, PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET OUT OF THAT SITUATION, AND THAT OF COURSE WILL BE DIFFICULT SOMETIMES TO GET THEM OUT.

BUT AT LEAST LET'S MAKE A MECHANISM.

LET'S GIVE A PATHWAY FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO LEAVE TO BE ABLE TO COME HERE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

RINA, DO YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING?

DO YOU SEE U.S. POLICY SHIFTING TOWARDS THE CARING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE AFGHAN WOMEN WHOM IT HELPED LIBERATE BY EDUCATING THEM?

>> Rina Shah Bharara: YOU KNOW, I GET A STRONG SENSE FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION THAT THEY DO CARE ABOUT THAT, AND I KNOW THAT MANY WILL FEEL THAT THIS ENTIRE OPERATION WAS TOTALLY MESSED UP.

LOOK, I MEAN, THIS WAS THE CARD THAT JOE BIDEN WAS DEALT AND IT'S NEVER GOING TO END WELL IN MY OPINION.

IT'S A TRAGEDY OF A GREAT PROPORTION, BUT WE CAN MAKE IT RIGHT.

SECRETARY BLINKEN IS STILL TAKING TIME TO CONSIDER IN TAKING STEPS TO CONSIDER, TO EVEN RECOGNIZE THE TALIBAN AS A LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT?O WE BELIEVE THEM, THE WONDER WALK ISN'T MATCHING THE TALK I CARE ABOUT THOSE WOMEN THAT BOTH DONNA AND LINDA TALKED ABOUT, BECAUSE THEY CAME OF AGE IN THESE PAST 20 YEARS, THEY GOT TO SEE A DIFFERENT LIFE.

AND IT'S AS IF THE HANDS OF TIME, IT'S JUST TURNED BACK ON THEM.

SO WE SHOULD NOT ABANDON THEM, IT'S ACTUALLY OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DO SOMETHING FOR THOSE WOMEN WHO WANT TO DO MORE FOR THEMSELVES.

BECAUSE IF THEY STAY IN THESE SITUATIONS, WHERE SOMETIMES NOW THEY'RE THE MAJORITY BREADWINNERS FOR THEIR FAMILY, THEY KNOW THAT THIS TALIBAN DOES NOT WANT A BETTER LIFE FOR THEM, BECAUSE OF THEIR GENDER.

SO WE AS AMERICANS, I REALLY BELIEVE IN THE AMERICAN SPIRIT, WE WILL COALESCE AROUND THE AFGHAN REFUGEES, AND I THINK WE WILL PUT PRESSURE ON OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO DO THE RIGHT THING TO USE DIPLOMATIC CHANNELS AND GET THOSE WHO WANT TO COME OUT OUT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

AND, MANAL, I THROUGH THE FINAL QUESTION TO YOU: ARE YOU AS OPTIMISTIC AS RINA AND LINDA SEEM TO BE THAT WOMEN WILL BE ABLE TO KEEP THE PROTESTS GOING AND KEEP THE TALIBAN AT BAY IN SOME WAY?

>> Manal Omar: I'M OPTIMISTIC, BUT FOR DIFFERENT REASONS: A MOM OF DOMESTIC BECAUSE SOME OF HIS BUILDER AND THAT'S KIND OF WHAT WE HAVE TO DO, IS CREATE OPTIMISM AND HOPE.

I THINK THE AFGHAN WOMEN WILL CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE IN SPITE OF US.I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO OWN THAT WE PUT THE AFGHAN WOMEN AND SEVERAL OTHER WOMEN, IF YOU LOOK AT IRAQ AND LIBYA IN TERMS OF OUR INTERVENTIONS IN DANGER, AND WE NEED A TWO-PRONGED APPROACH.

NOT ONLY PULLING THE REFUGEES OUT, BUT WHAT WILL WE DO TO PROTECT THOSE WHO STAY?

I MEAN, THE AMOUNT OF BRAIN DRAIN THAT'S TAKING PLACE, WHICH IS SECONDARY PROTECTION IS ALWAYS FIRST.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, ANYONE WHO WANTS TO LEAVE SHOULD GET FIRST PRIORITY.

I THINK THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE PROTECTION, BUT WE'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH FOR PROTECTION FOR THE WOMEN WHO WANT TO STAY.

AND THOSE WHO STAY THAT'S WHERE WE'LL HAVE LONG TERM SUSTAINABLE CHANGE FOR THE WOMEN.

LET'S NOT FORGET AFGHAN WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS BEEN POWERFUL.

IT'S NOT JUST THE LAST TWO DECADES, THE WAY PEOPLE LIKE TO PORTRAY.

IT'S BEEN FOR CENTURIES.

IT WAS JUST THE WARS IN THE TALIBAN THAT SET WOMEN BACK.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

BUT WITHOUT ANY PEOPLE ON THE GROUND IN AFGHANISTAN, WITHOUT DIPLOMATS, WITHOUT MILITARY TROOPS, WHAT -- HOW ARE YOU THINKING WE SHOULD GET THIS DONE?

>> Manal Omar: I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS SUPPORTING THOSE ON THE GROUND.

WE FELT LOCAL PARTNERS.

THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN VERY STRONG CIVIL SOCIETY AND ACTIVISTS IN AFGHANISTAN.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO FIND WAYS, AGAIN, OF PROTECTING BUT ALSO SUPPORTING THEM AS THEY RUN THEIR PROGRAMS.

WE DON'T NEED THE EXPERTS AND THE DEPLOYMENTS -- IF ANYTHING, THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN IMPLEMENTERS IN THE WAY THAT THINGS RUN BECAUSE OF REMOTE MANAGEMENT OF THE DANGERS IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

THANK YOU ALL.

THAT WAS TERRIFIC.

PLEASE JOIN US IN THE INTERIM AND CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ON TWITTER, FACEBOOK AND INSTAGRAM.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

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