>> Bonnie Erbe: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", THE NEWEST BILL BACK BETTER BILL DOES NOT INCLUDE PAID FAMILY LEAVE, BUT IS THERE STILL ENOUGH IN IT TO SATISFY PROGRESSIVES?

THEN WALKOUTS, PROTESTS, COUNTER PROTESTS OVER COMEDIAN DAVE CHAPELLE'S NETFLIX SPECIAL THAT SOME SAY LAMBASTED TRANSGENDER AMERICANS.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, WHAT'S IN, WHAT'S OUT, AND WHO IS PAYING FOR IT?

BEFORE LEAVING FOR THE G20 SUMMIT IN ROME, PRESIDENT BIDEN LAID OUT HIS FRAMEWORK FOR A 1.7 TRILLION DOLLAR HUMAN INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, SCALED WAY BACK FROM THE ORIGINAL 3.5 TRILLION.

THE BILL INCLUDES MONEY FOR UNIVERSAL PRE-K, A LIMIT ON CHILDCARE COSTS FOR CERTAIN FAMILIES, ELDERCARE, AND AN EXPANDED CHILD TAX CREDIT, CLIMATE PROVISIONS, AND A NUMBER OF OTHER ITEMS.

WHAT IT DOES NOT INCLUDE IS A LONG-STANDING PROPOSAL TO CREATE A FEDERAL PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE SYSTEM AND FREE COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

JOINING ME TODAY ARE D.C.

DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, HERITAGE FOUNDATION SENIOR ADVISOR GENEVIEVE WOOD, THE AMSTERDAM NEWS'S SAM BENNETT AND RENEWED DEMOCRACY INITIATIVES RINA SHAH.

FIRST QUESTION TO D.C.

DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, ELEANOR, WHEN THE CLIMATE PROVISIONS WERE FIRST TAKEN OUT, THE ADMINISTRATION KEPT SAYING, BUT WAIT A MINUTE, THERE'S OTHER MONEY HIDDEN IN THERE FOR CLIMATE CHANGE.

SO IS IT THE SAME IN THIS CASE?

IS THERE STILL GOING TO BE MONEY AND BILL FOR PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: PAID LEAVE IS OUT.

THAT'S A REAL SHAME.

CLIMATE CHANGE HAS BEEN PARED DOWN SO THAT IT ISN'T DOING AS MUCH GOOD.

THAT'S THE ONE PROVISION I CONSIDER MOST IMPORTANT, AND WE ARE STILL WORKING ON IT.

IT'S GOT TO -- IT'S GOT TO PLUS UP IN ORDER TO DO US ANY GOOD.

>> Bonnie Erbe: IS THIS ALL -- HE WANTS TO JUMP IN?

IS THIS ALL BECAUSE OF SENATOR'S MACHIN IN CINEMA?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: PRECISELY.

AND PARTICULAR SINEMA WHO IS CUTTING THE BILL LEFT AND RIGHT.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT GOOD IT DOES TO HAVE TWO DEMOCRATS.

I GUESS IT'S BETTER THAN HAVING TWO REPUBLICANS THAT WERE IN A 50-50 SENATE.

THAT'S THE HANG OUT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

YOUR THOUGHTS.

GO AHEAD, GENEVIEVE.

>> Genevieve Wood: WELL, I WOULD SAY IT, YES, THE SENATORS YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT A PART OF THE ISSUE BUT THAT'S BECAUSE A LOT OF THE CONSTITUENTS AND A LOT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THINK THIS BILL COSTS WAY TOO MUCH.

THEY ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT IT'S NOT JUST GOING TO BE A COST IN WASHINGTON, BUT THAT THE COSTS WILL END UP BEING PUT ON THEM.

I KNOW WE'VE HEARD A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT ONLY RICH PEOPLE WILL PAY THIS, BUT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH THAT ENOUGH FOR MOST AMERICANS TO KNOW THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT USUALLY ENDS UP WORKING OUT.

AND WHEN PEOPLE SAY THE KIND OF THINGS THEY ARE SEEING AT THE GAS PUMP RIGHT NOW, THE PRICES ON FOOD AND GROCERY STORES, THE FACT THAT SOME OF THE SHELVES ARE EMPTY, I THINK THEY ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS TRILLION DOLLAR PACKAGE AND I THINK THAT'S WHY YOU SEE SENATOR SINEMA AND MANCHIN DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOUR FOX, SAM.

>> Sam Bennett: WELL, I MUST ADMIT I HAD THE HONOR OF ASSISTING SINEMA WHEN SHE WAS RUNNING AND NUMEROUS OTHER RACES WHEN I WAS AT THE HOME OF WOMEN'S CAMPAIGN FUND.

AND A HAPPY SAME DISAPPOINTED.

THIS IS A TIME FOR US TO INVEST.

I LOVE THE WAY IT'S POSITIONED.

IT'S HUMAN INFRASTRUCTURE.

WE TRAIL BEHIND EVERY OTHER RICH NATION IN SO MANY OF THESE IMPORTANT SUPPORTS FOR OUR CITIZENS, INCLUDING PAID LEAVE.

OTHER NATIONS WITH FAR SMALLER ECONOMIES, FAR LESS WEALTH PER CITIZEN HAVE PASSED AND ENACTED THIS LEGISLATION AGES AGO INCLUDING, MOST RECENTLY, CLIMATE CHANGE.

I FIND THIS ALL VERY DISAPPOINTING.

>> Bonnie Erbe: YOU KNOW, I HAVE HEARD THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND I DON'T HAVE TIME, UNFORTUNATELY, TO LOOK INTO IT MYSELF.

BUT IS IT TRUE, RINA, COUNTRIES LIKE COSTA RICA OR SOUTH AFRICA, WHICH ARE REALLY IMPOVERISHED, HAVE PAID FAMILY LEAVE FOR THEIR CITIZENS AND WE DON'T?

>> Rina Shah: COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD RECOGNIZE WHAT IT TAKES TO BUILD STRONGER, MORE EFFICIENT, BETTER SOCIETIES.

SOMEHOW WE DON'T.

WE ARE LAGGING IN PAID LEAVE.

WHY?

BECAUSE OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES REFUSED TO DO THE BARE MINIMUM TO STRENGTHEN THE AMERICAN FAMILY.

NOW, HAVING ME IN MY CAREER ON THE RIGHT, I CAN STATE THAT THERE ARE MANY OPPONENTS TO PAID LEAVE FROM THE FEDERAL LEVEL OF WHICH WILL SAY THERE SHOULD NOT BE A FEDERAL THING.

APP AND AT STATEHOUSE TABLES FOR YEARS.

THE PAST SEVEN YEARS.

I HAVE A FIVE-YEAR-OLD AT HOME.

SEVEN YEARS, EXCEPT WITH LEGISLATORS IN STATE HOUSES LIKE THE ONE IN VIRGINIA WHERE I LIVE.

WE TALKED ABOUT SMALL BUSINESS TAX INCENTIVES, WE TALKED ABOUT VARIOUS TAXES TO DO THIS.

THIS HAS NOT BEEN POSSIBLE, THERE'S BEEN NO POLITICAL WILL OR COURAGE, AND SUBURBAN WOMEN LIKE ME WILL BE SO ANGRY, I BELIEVE, IN THE LEAD UP TO 2022 BECAUSE THIS IS WHY I GIVE MY VOTE TO DEMOCRATS AFTER THE NIGHTMARE THAT WAS THE THROES OF THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC, THE LOCKDOWN THAT ENSUED, THERE ARE SUBURBAN WOMEN WHO HAD ENOUGH.

WE UNDERSTAND TO MAKE SOCIETY BETTER, YOU CAN STRENGTHEN THE AMERICAN FAMILY BY MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH OUR BABIES, FIND WAYS TO DECREASE -- >> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

BUT YOU OF ALL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THE DEMOCRATS WERE ONLY ABLE TO CAPTURE THE SENATE BY THE SLIMMEST OF MAJORITIES, 50-50, THAT THEY HAVE TWO PEOPLE, TWO -- WHO CALL THEMSELVES DEMOCRATS BY DIRECTING WAY MORE LIKE REPUBLICANS AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

SO, SO YOU'RE GOING TO -- NEW SUBURBAN MOMS ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR A TRUMP: LIKE GLEN YOUNG CAN RUNNING IN VIRGINIA?> Rina Shah: NOT ABSOLUTELY NOT.

NO, NO, NO.

THIS IS WHERE IT GETS DICEY.

BECAUSE, LOOK, THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY.

I KNOW THAT EVERYBODY WANTS TO SAY IT'S A BELLWETHER FOR 2022.

BUT THIS IS VERY SEPARATE.

AND I'M ON TEAM McAULIFFE BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE ELECTION INTEGRITY GARBAGE THAT GLENN YOUNGKIN IS SELLING HE'S A MODERATE REPUBLICAN WHO I LARGELY AGREE WITH ON MOST OF ITS POLICIES.

BUT THE WAY HE RUNS AROUND TOWN TALKING ABOUT ELECTION INTEGRITY IS ABSOLUTE MALARKEY.

AND I THINK WHERE WE ARE AT, BONNIE, THE DEMOCRATS VOTED TO THE AMERICAN FAMILY.

AND I THINK TO SAY THAT THIS WOULD HAVE ENDANGERED THEIR POPULARITY, THIS IS TERRIBLE.

PAID LEAVE IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT DOING BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE.

IT JUST MAKES SENSE.

WE DON'T LIVE IN MULTIGENERATIONAL HOUSEHOLDS ANYMORE.

THEY ARE SINGLE MOTHERS OUT THERE DOING IT AND DOING IT TO A POINT OF EXHAUSTION.

WHAT ARE WE DOING TO OUR FELLOW AMERICANS?

PAID LEAVE IS PALATABLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, COAST-TO-COAST.

.S.

PEOPLE, IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE IN TAXES, COURSE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: TO STRENGTHEN THE AMERICAN FAMILY BY MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR MOTHERS TO ENTER THE WORKFORCE AGAIN?

AMERICAN WOMEN CAN DRIVE THE AMERICAN ECONOMIC ENGINE IF WE ACTUALLY HAVE SUPPORT TO GO BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: BACK IN HERE ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS FOR ALL OF THIS FOR THE 2022 ELECTIONS.

AS RINA JUST SAID, NO SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE PUTTING THAT ON WHAT'S GOING TO SEND -- WHAT'S GOING TO PROPEL VOTERS TO THE VOTING BOOTHS IN THE CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION, 1/3 OF THE SENATE, ALL OF THE HOUSE, NEXT YEAR.

O WILL THE DEMOCRATS BE BLAMED FOR A SLUGGISH ECONOMY, A -- INFLATION, YOU KNOW, DELAYS AT THE PORTS, ETC., ETC., ALL THESE AWFUL THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING TO THE ECONOMY.

AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT, NO TAIL.

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: BECAUSE WE CONTROL THE HOUSE, THE SENATE, AND THE WHITE HOUSE, WE CERTAINLY ARE GOING TO BE BLAMED.

AND IN THE OFF YEAR AFTER YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF MAJORITY, USUALLY LOSE SEATS.

THAT IS WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT THESE TWO BILLS GET PAST.

THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL AND THE BILL BACK BETTER BILL, THAT COULD RESCUE DEMOCRATS FROM EVEN FURTHER LOSSES.

AND WE ARE SO CLOSE NOW.

I WOULD SAY WE ARE 99 PERCENT OF THE WAY BECAUSE DEMOCRATS RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS IT.

.

A ESIDENT IS NOW ABROAD, BUT BEFORE HE LEFT, HE ALL BUT SO DO STOP.

I HAVE JUST COME BACK AS I SPEAK FROM A DEMOCRATIC -- FROM A DEMOCRATIC CONFERENCE WHERE THE PRESIDENT APPEARED BEFORE HE WAS ABOUT TO GO ABROAD, AND I THINK WE ARE THERE.

AND IF WE ARE NOT THERE, WE ARE TOAST.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND YOU THINK , ANYBODY, THAT THE DEMOCRATIC VOTERS WILL GIVE THE DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS CREDIT FOR DOING SOMETHING FOR THEM?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: THEY DON'T IF WE DON'T PASS THIS BILL.

>> Bonnie: BUT EVEN IF YOU PASS THIS BILL, SAM, ARE DEMOCRATIC VOTERS GOING TO THINK THAT IS ENOUGH FOR JUST THINK, EH, SO WHAT, I DID NOT GET MY PAID FAMILY LEAVE?

>> Rina Shah: TO GIVE RINA AND GENEVIEVE'S PARTY CREDIT, IN MY YEARS OF BEING A PARTY CHAIR, WE HAVE TO WORK A LOT HARDER AS DEMOCRATS TO GET OUR VOTERS TO THE POLLS, EDUCATE OUR VOTERS.

THIS BECOMES AN EDUCATION ISSUE, BONNIE, FOR THE TRIPLE SEE, FOR THE DNC, TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR CANDIDATES AND THE PARTY ITSELF GETS CREDIT FOR A JOB WELL DONE.

AGAIN, JUST TO GIVE A NOD TO REPUBLICANS, THEIR VOTERS TEND TO BE A LITTLE DISCIPLINED AND DON'T NEED QUITE AS MUCH PUSH TO THE POLLS AND INFORMATION.

BUT I THINK THAT'S REQUIRED HERE, BONNIE.

>> TAKING AWAY FROM THE POLITICAL SIDE FROM THIS FOR A MINUTE, LET'S TALK ABOUT PAID FAMILY LEAVE, I'M NOT OPPOSED TO THAT.

THE PROBLEM HERE, IT WOULD OFTEN HAPPEN, MUCH OF WHAT WAS IN HIS BILL WOULD'VE HELPED UPPER MIDDLE-CLASS AND MIDDLE-CLASS WORKING WOMEN, BUT NOT LOWER WAGE WORKERS.

WE WERE GOING TO BE PAYING CORPORATIONS TO GET PEOPLE PAID FAMILY LEAVE.

MANY OF THESE CORPORATIONS, THE COMPANIES ALREADY DO PAY FAMILY LEAVE.

THAT WAS BASICALLY GOING TO BE CORPORATE WELFARE FOR THEM.

IF WE REALLY WANT TO HELP THE WOMEN WHO NEED THIS THE MOST WHO ARE WORKING FOR SMALL BUSINESSES AND COMPANIES THAT ARE NOT ALREADY OFFERING PAID FAMILY LEAVE, WE SHOULD MAKE THIS MUCH MORE TARGETED.UT THEY DID NOT GO ABOUT IT THE SMART WAY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT WAS GOING TO BE PEOPLE WORKING FOR LARGER COMPANIES IF WE ARE GOING TO GET MORE OF THIS.

IS JUST ABOUT GOVERNMENT WILL PAY FOR IT IS SUPPOSED TO BUSINESSES.

IN THE VERY LOW WAGE FOLKS, MANY OF WHICH ARE SINGLE MOMS, WERE NOT GOING TO GET THIS OUT OF THE DEMOCRATIC BILL.

AT THE END OF THE DAY -- [CROSS TALK] LET'S NOT BE POLITICAL, LET'S BE SMART FROM A POLICY PERSPECTIVE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: BUT IS THAT CORRECT?

AND IF SO, WHY WASN'T IT POSITIONED THAT WAY?

>> Genevieve Wood: BECAUSE THEY WANT TO SELL IT TO EVERYBODY.

I MEAN, THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE SAID THAT IF YOU PASS A BILL AS IT WAS NOW, THE MONEY THEY WERE ASKING FOR PAID FAMILY LEAVE, IT WOULD HAVE ONLY COVERED MAYBE 40 PERCENT OF THE AMOUNT OF PAID FAMILY LEAVE WOMEN WOULD HAVE REQUESTED.

SO IT DID NOT EVEN PAY FOR ITSELF.

AND AGAIN, IT WASN'T TARGETED.

WE ALREADY HAVE COMPANIES DOING A LOT OF THIS.

WHY ARE WE GOING TO PAY THEM TO DO MORE OF IT?

>> Bonnie Erbe: ELEANOR, IS THAT ACCURATE THAT IT WAS GOING TO CORPORATIONS, NOT INDIVIDUALS?

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: THE PAID FAMILY LEAVE WAS GOING TO GO TO INDIVIDUALS AND NOT ENOUGH INDIVIDUALS AT THAT.

>> Genevieve Wood: THEY WERE GOING TO COMPANIES THAT WOULD THEN PASS IT THROUGH THE INDIVIDUALS, SO WE WERE GOING TO PAY COMPANIES TO PASS ON TO THEIR EMPLOYEES.

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: THAT'S FINE.

>> Genevieve Wood: BUT IN MANY OF THESE CASES, DELEGATE, MANY OF THESE COMPANIES WERE ALREADY DOING THAT.

SO THERE'S NO NEED TO PAY THEM -- >> Bonnie Erbe: WHAT'S WRONG WITH THEM EXPANDING THE NUMBER OF WEEKS THEY GIVE OF PAID FAMILY LEAVE?

>> Genevieve Wood: BECAUSE, BONNIE, AT THE END OF DAY, YOU RUN OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY, THAT'S WHY.

AND IF WE REALLY WANT TO BE HELPING PEOPLE, YOU'VE GOT TO SAY WE HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF MONEY, HOW DO WE MAKE THE BEST USE OF THIS?

BUT IN THIS CASE, THE DEMOCRATS, NOT JUST ON PAID FAMILY LEAVE, BUT A LOT OF THESE THINGS, I THINK THEY HAVE OVERREACH.

AND THEREFORE, THEY CAME UP WITH A BILL THAT WAS WAY, WAY TOO EXPENSIVE.

NOW THEY ARE TRYING TO DRAW IT BACK, BUT THE BRANDING IS ALREADY OUT THERE, WHICH WAS YOU OVERREACHED.

>> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK, AND WE ARE GOING TO GET A SLIMMED-DOWN BILL, BUT THAT SLIMMED-DOWN BILL WILL MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR DEMOCRATS TO RUN IN 2022 AND IT WILL, IT WILL MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR THE PRESIDENT TO GIVE US A PLUS THAT HE NEEDS NOW WITH HIS RATING SO LOW.

>> Sam Bennett: I THINK IT'S MISCHARACTERIZING THIS BILL, TO CULLODEN OVERREACH.

I WOULD SAY IT'S AMBITIOUS AND AMBITIOUS IN ALL THE RIGHT WAYS BECAUSE WE ARE SO FAR BEHIND OTHER RICH NATIONS AND OTHER, OTHER NATIONS OF COSTA RICA, TO YOUR POINT, BONNIE, SO IT'S NOT OVERREACH.

IT'S AMBITION AND LONG-OVERDUE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: FROM COMPROMISE TO CONTROVERSIAL COMEDY: DAVE CHAPELLE CAN'T MAKE A MOVE THESE DAYS, IT SEEMS, WITHOUT IGNITING CONTROVERSY.

HIS LATEST NETFLIX SPECIAL CALLED THE CLOSER HAS INFURIATED THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY FOR SEVERAL REASONS.

HE STATED THAT GENDER IS A FACT, IN STRICT OPPOSITION TO THE BELIEF THAT PEOPLE ARE NON-BINARY OR SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN MALE AND FEMALE.

HE COMPARED TRANSGENDER WOMEN TO WHITE PEOPLE WEARING BLACK FACE OR PRETENDING TO BE SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT.

HE DEFENDED HARRY POTTER AUTHOR JK ROWLING FOR COMMENTS SHE MADE, DEEMED ANTI-TRANS.

DESPITE ONLINE AND IN-PERSON PROTESTS, CALLING FOR THE SPECIAL TO BE TAKEN OFF NETFLIX, CEO TED SARANDOS SAYS CHAPELLE HAS THE PROTECTION OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT, AS DOES ANY OTHER ARTIST OR COMEDIAN.

SO, RINA SHAH, YOU'RE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY.

TELL ME WHY, AND I DON'T MEAN TO STIR CONTROVERSY HERE, I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY LGBTQ PEOPLE GOT SO UPSET OVER AT LEAST ONE OF THESE COMMENTS STATING THAT GENDER IS A FACT.

>> Rina Shah: WELL, IT'S OBVIOUS TO ME WHY THEY ARE UP IN ARMS ABOUT IT, BECAUSE IT'S DENYING WHO THEY ARE AS PEOPLE ON ITS VERY FACEND SO, AS SOMEBODY WHO IS A SUPPORTER OF THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY, I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS TOUGH.

THIS IS A TOUGH ISSUE TO JACK ABOUT.

IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT TO HAVE THIS DEBATE IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE TAKE EXTREME SIDES.

BUT THIS IS COMMENT TO ME.

>> Bonnie Erbe: BUT DON'T LGBTQ PEOPLE MAKE UP ABOUT 10 PERCENT, THE MOST GENEROUS ESTIMATES, 10 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION?

>> Rina Shah: AND THAT'S ONE LEADING FACT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND MOST OTHER AMERICANS WOULD SAY, I AM A WOMAN OR I'M A MANOULDN'T THEY?

>> Rina Shah: ABSOLUTELY, BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT AS AMERICANS, WE HAVE TO BE ACCEPTING.

I DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO WALK ONTO THE STREET AND BE THE VICTIM OF A HATE CRIME LITERALLY BECAUSE SOMEONE IS WALKING AROUND WITH THIS SENTENCE THAT THEY JUST DON'T DESERVE TO BE A FULL PERSON IN SOCIETY.

EQUALITY MEANS HAVING THESE TOUGH CONVERSATIONS.

BUT WHERE I SORT OF PART WAYS WITH THE COMMUNITY HERE, AND THIS IS TOUGH BECAUSE I'M NOT TRANS PHOBIC IN ANY WAY, IS JUST THAT TO ME THIS IS COMEDY.

AND YOU CAN WATCH IT OR YOU CANNOT WATCH IT.

BUT IF WE CANCEL IT, WHAT ARE WE DOING?

WERE NOT EVEN HAVING A DEBATE.

AND IT'S A PRIVATE CORPORATION.

IT'S THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

PUT IT OUT, BUT DON'T -- STARTED WATCHING IT WITH MIKE HUSBAND.

WE WERE CURIOUS.

AT ALL.

DAVE CHAPELLE FUNNY.

AND NEVER ACTUALLY HAVE FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

SO I JUST DON'T WATCH THIS STUFF.

MY HUSBAND CONTINUE TO WATCH IT.

I WATCHED IT I I KNOWING ALL HEADLINES AROUND IT, I WATCHED IT, I CONSIDERED IT.

AND I WAS LIKE, I'M NOT INTO IT.

SO I WENT UPSTAIRS AND HE CONTINUED TO WATCH IT.

BUT THAT'S JUST IT IS THAT YES, IT FEELS TO PEOPLE THAT THIS IS COMPLETELY TARGETED HARASSMENT OF SOME SORT, BUT LIVING IN A FREE AND OPEN AND JUST SOCIETY MEANS THAT WE CAN CANCEL THE THINGS THAT DON'T SOUND RIGHT TO US.

IF I WENT OUT THERE AND WAS AGAINST EVERY SINGLE THING THAT DENIED ME AS EVERYTHING I CAN AND CANNOT CHANGE ABOUT MYSELF, RIGHT, THEN WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY WOULD WE HAVE?

WE CAN CUSHION OUR CHILDREN AND OURSELVES FROM THESE INCONVENIENT TRUTHS, IT FEELS LIKE SOMETIMES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

I WANT TO JUMP TO GENEVIEVE NOW.

YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Genevieve Wood: I MEAN, I THINK SHE MADE ALL THE RIGHT COMMENTS.

AND THE FACT IS PEOPLE CAN WATCH IT, NOT WATCHING.

I MEAN, THINK BACK AT THINGS, LET'S GO WAY BACK, ALL IN THE FAMILY, THE JEFFERSONS.

OKAY.

PEOPLE SAID STUFF ON THOSE SHOWS THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FOUND CONTROVERSIAL.

BUT THEY WERE STILL FUNNY.

THE REALITY IS YOU WERE NOT FORCED TO WATCH THOSE, DID NOT HAVE TO WATCH THOSE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THE ADVERTISING OR SUPPORT THE ADVERTISERS THAT SUPPORT THEM.

I MEAN, LOOK, ARE WE GOING TO HAVE A FIRST AMENDMENT OR NOT?

I MEAN, PEOPLE GOING TO SAY WHAT THEY BELIEVE OR MAKE COMMENTS THAT OFFEND OTHERS OR NOT?

AND, YOU KNOW, WE LET PEOPLE -- [CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie Erbe: LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION, GENEVIEVE: DO YOU THINK DAVE CHAPELLE SAYING GENDER IS A FACT IS GOING TO RESULT IN MALTREATMENT, EVEN BEATINGS WERE MURDERS OF TRANSGENDER INDIVIDUALS?

>> Genevieve Wood: I DON'T THINK SO.

BUT, BONNIE, LOOK: HERE'S THE REALITY.

I BELIEVE GENDER IS A FACT.

OKAY'M SAYING THAT RIGHT HERE, AND THERE ARE A LOT OF AMERICANS WHO BELIEVE GENDER IS A FACT.

DID THAT MEAN THAT I THINK PEOPLE WHO DON'T THINK THAT I WILL OR LIVING DIFFERENTLY THAN THAT SHOULD BE MARGINALIZED OR BE IN?

OF COURSE NOT!

BUT THE IDEA THAT WE ALL HAVE TO BELIEVE THE EXACT SAME WAY IS JUST RIDICULOUS AND THAT WE CAN'T STATE WHAT WE BELIEVE.

I MEAN, THAT'S HOW THIS COUNTRY, ONE OF THE REASONS IT WAS FOUNDED, WAS PEOPLE CAN BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIEVE WITHOUT PERSECUTING OTHERS.

AND WE GET INTO THIS CANCEL CULTURE, YOU'RE BASICALLY GOING TO BE PERSECUTING EVERYBODY EVENTUALLY, BECAUSE EVERYBODY'S GOING TO HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN SOMEONE ELSE ABOUT IMPORTANT THINGS AT DIFFERENT TIMES IN THEIR LIFE.

IF YOU ARE SAYING WE CANNOT STATE THOSE, THEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND -- THE WHOLE CULTURE IS GOING TO EVENTUALLY BE CANCELED.

TURN IT OFF IF YOU DON'T WANT TO WATCH IT.

LET'S STOP MAKING SUCH A BIG DEAL OUT OF EVERYTHING.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

ELEANOR, YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOST LGBTQ FRIENDLY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

D.C. IS VERY DEMOCRATIC AND HAS A VERY LARGE AND ACTIVE GAY COMMUNITY.

YOUR THOUGHTS ON ALL OF THIS.

> Del.

Eleanor Holmes Norton: AND DAVE CHAPELLE WENT TO THE DUKE ELLINGTON SCHOOL OF THE ARTS RIGHT HERE IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

BUT, BONNIE, I REPRESENTED, BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT, RACIST PEOPLE, WITH WHOM I OBVIOUSLY DISAGREE.

SO WHEN IT COMES TO SAYING WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY, IT'S PRETTY HARD FOR ME TO SAY THAT DAVE CHAPELLE SHOULD BE IN ANY WAY SHOT OUT.

HIS VIEWS ARE CONTROVERSIAL.

HE IS, AFTER ALL, A COMIC FOR GOODNESS SAKE.

THERE ARE MORE CONTROVERSIAL VIEWS FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN THE ENTERTAINMENT SPHERE.

SO I SAY, DAVE CHAPELLE, TAKE THE CRITICISM.

HE WOULD MEET WITH THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY AND ALL THOSE WHO HAVE TAKEN OFFENSE, THAT'S A GOOD THING.

BUT HE'S ALSO SAID HE WON'T CHANGE WHAT HE'S DOING, AND THAT TOO IS HOW THE ARTS -- >> Bonnie Erbe: WELCOME AT FIRST HE SAID HE WOULD NOT MEET WITH THE, WITH THE NETFLIX EMPLOYEES WHO ARE LGBTQ.OW HE SAYS HE WILL, BUT HE SET DOWN SOME RULES FOR IT.

DO YOU THINK, SAM, THAT THAT WILL -- IF HE HAS THIS MEETING, THAT THAT WILL SHUT DOWN THE CONTROVERSY OR WILL HE CONTINUE?

>> Sam Bennett: I DON'T KNOW.

WE WANT TO SEE THE CONTROVERSY SHUTDOWN.

I THINK THE CONTROVERSY IS THE POINT.

I'M A HUGE DAVE CHAPELLE -- SHE'S A GENIUS, HE'S WON MORE AWARDS THAN YOU CAN COUNT.

HE IS THE MARK TWAIN SOMEWHAT ARGUE OF OUR GENERATION.

I THINK WHAT HAS SORT OF ELICITED THIS RESPONSE -- >> Bonnie Erbe: BUT ALSO, LET ME JUST SAY, SOMEONE WHO -- I'M NOT A FAN.

I WATCHED "THE CLOSER", THE CONTROVERSIAL EPISODE, ALTHOUGH IT WAS THINGS THAT HE SAID OVER THE YEARS THAT ALSO GOT HIM IN TROUBLE, BUT IN THIS ONE, I THINK IN AN HOUR, HOUR AND A HALF, I DON'T EVEN RECALL, IT WAS EXTREMELY BORING.

FOR ABOUT THREE QUARTERS OF THE TIME -- A COUPLE OF TIMES, AND I DID NOT MEASURE IT, MAYBE FOUR OR FIVE, HE HAD HYSTERICALLY FUNNY LINES.

AND THE REST OF IT WAS A LOT OF RAMBLING AND A LOT OF STUFF THAT HE WASN'T EVEN TRYING TO BE FUNNY> Sam Bennett: WELL, I'M SURE YOU RESPECT MY RIGHT TO LOVE DAVE CHAPELLE.

BUT BOTTOM LINE, I THINK THE POINT HERE, THOUGH, IS, JUST AS I WAS CALLING A BUDDY ON USING SEXIST TERMINOLOGY IN EVERYDAY LIFE, RIGHT, THE CHALLENGE -- THE DANGER HERE IS NORMALIZING THAT WHICH IS, WE ALL AGREE ON IS UNACCEPTABLE, RIGHT?

WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IN TRANSGENDER OR NOT, I DO, I BELIEVE IN GENDER FLUIDITY.

MIKE, YOU KNOW, MY 19 AND 17-YEAR-OLD NIECES AND NEPHEWS, THE GENERATION ARE ALL ABOUT GENDER FLUIDITY.

BUT BOTTOM LINE: I THINK THE IDEA IS WE DON'T WANT TO NORMALIZE WHAT ESSENTIALLY ADDICTS EXTREME BECOMES, COULD BECOME HATE CRIME, LET'S SAY, COULD BE HATEFUL AND DESTRUCTIVE.

SO I THINK THE ISSUE HERE IS, SURE, THERE SHOULD BE CONTROVERSY.

SURE, COMEDIANS LIKE DAVE CHAPELLE SHOULD HAVE FREE RIGHT SPEECH.

BUT WE IN SOCIETY HAVE TO MAKE IT CLEAR THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN SO MUCH AS IT NORMALIZES A PARTICULAR VIEW, AND THE VIOLENCE -- >> Bonnie Erbe: IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO SAY GENDER IS A FACT.

>> Sam Bennett: WHAT I'M SAYING IS THERE'S A CONTINUUM, AND ONE COULD BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE THAT WHETHER -- AND I DON'T -- BEFORE, I DID NOT EITHER, BY THE WAY.

THAT GENDER IS FLUID.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION AS A SOCIETY TO WEIGH IN AND SAY THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

TO BE HONEST, I THINK THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY IS DOING EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING.HAT DOES NOT MEAN DAVE HAS TO AGREE WITH THEM.

IT'S GOOD THAT HE'S MEETING WITH THEM.

AND THINK THAT NETFLIX IS DOING THE RIGHT THING BY NOT CUTTING, YOU KNOW, DAVE OFF BY THE KNEES.

THIS IS THE PRICE WE PAY TO LIVE IN A FREE SOCIETY WITH FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: ALL RIGHT.

ET'S ALSO SAY, AMY, DAVE CHAPELLE IS PROBABLY ABOUT 10 TIMES AS FAMOUS NOW AS HE WAS BEFORE THIS CONTROVERSY ERUPTED.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HE'S DOING TO CREATE PUBLICITY FOR HIMSELF?

>> Sam Bennett: THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN A STRATEGY.

THIS IS WHAT HIS -- PUT HIM ON THE MAP IN PART OF HIS GENIUS.

I DON'T THINK HE'S DOING IT DISINGENUOUSLY, HONESTLY.

I THINK IS DOING IT BECAUSE HE BELIEVES IN IT.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS I THINK THE LGBT COMMUNITY IS DOING THE RIGHT THING AND WE CAN WEIGH IN ON THAT.

I THINK EVERYONE IN THE SITUATION IS DOING THE RIGHT THING.

WE SHOULD HAVE CONTROVERSY, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT LEADS TO CHANGE.

I REMEMBER BEING AT THE DINNER TABLE AS A LITTLE GIRL.

MY MOM WAS HORRIFIED.

THEY WERE WATER HOSTING CIVIL RIGHTS PROTESTERS ON TV.

AND I GREW UP WITH HEARING MY MOTHER'S HORROR ABOUT THAT, AND THAT IS WHY AM IN WOMEN'S ADVANCEMENT, THAT'S WHY WORK AT AMSTERDAM NEWS, THE NATION'S OLDEST AND MOST INFLUENTIAL BLACK NEWSPAPER.

IT SHAPED MY LIFE.

SO CONTROVERSY IS IMPORTANT FOR US TO MAKE SURE THAT THE RIGHT OUTCOME EVENTUALLY HAPPENS IN SOCIETY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: THANK YOU ALL.

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