(Holly) A book in our reach is like a handshake to the connection we all need, because through them we gain friends, we gain family, and those characters we never even knew we needed in our lives until we start turning the pages.

Hi, I'm Holly Jackson, your host for Books by the River.

Thanks for joining us on this journey, where we sit down beside the writers who tell the stories that sometimes feel like our own, or give us a glimpse of the experiences of someone we may need to know.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (Announcer) Major funding for Books by the River is brought to you by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina, the proud partner of South Carolina ETV and Public Radio.

With the generosity of individuals, corporations and foundations.

The ETV Endowment is committed to sharing southern storytelling and compelling conversations with viewers across the nation.

This program is supported by Coastal Community Foundation of South Carolina.

This program is made possible by the support of Peter Zamuka and Lynn Baker.

Additional funding for Books by the River is provided by Visit Beaufort, Port Royal, and Sea Islands and Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USC Beaufort.

(Holly) And here to talk to us today is Kardea Brown, author of Make Do with What You Have.

Welcome, Kardea.

(Kardea) Thank you for having me Holly.

(Holly) Thank you so much.

And just a little drive down the road for you.

(Kardea) Yeah.

(Holly) Here we are in Beaufort.

And home is Charleston for you.

(Kardea) Home is Charleston, yes I mean, Beaufort kind of I mean, it feels the same.

It's just like an hour away, and it's just as beautiful as Charleston.

I love Beaufort, I love it.

(Holly) Well, thank you.

And the people here love you too, because you cook like we cook around here.

And we have so much to talk about because we're going to talk about writing.

We're going to talk about those roots.

(Kardea) Yes.

(Holly) Where you came from.

We're going to talk about a restaurant.

I mean, you've just got a whole lot going on.

(Kardea) I do, I do.

(Holly) Ready, set, go.

Here we are.

Alright.

Let's start with the book.

So tell me how exciting this book is and just kind of what you really want the readers to get out of it.

(Kardea) Oh gosh.

Make do with What You Have It's it's a it's been about two and a half, three years in the making, and so now that it's finally out, it's, it's so cool to kind of see how everyone's receiving it.

You know, the book is all about, my upbringing with a single parent mother who, you know, did her best to provide for our household and a lot of times, you know, I didn't understand growing up when my mom was like, "Hey, we don't necessarily have McDonald's money right now, and so we're going to eat what we have at home."

And my mom did a great job you know, and my grandmother too, who helped raise me, did a great job of just like making so many delicious meals really out of little to nothing.

And so this book is to honor that.

(Holly) Okay.

I loved this intro reading it.

I've told you, I feel like it was like you talking to me in person.

It really feels like a friend and somebody who knows how we all lived.

(Kardea) Yes.

(Holly) And you talked about those rough times, which I think make us who we are.

And you can appreciate that now.

But those times when you're in your 20s and you look into the pantry and you've got one can of corn.

(Kardea) Yes.

(Holly) You're like, I can dump it in a bowl and put some salt on it, heat it up, or wait, I can do more.

Tell me about like, that example in particular, how you can make something into so much more with just a few extra bucks.

(Kardea) Right, so in college, I think that's where I really kind of went back to my roots, because I was in college.

I'm on my own now.

I'm in a dorm room with a hot plate and a microwave and very little room to like, you know, have a pantry or anything like that.

So I had, you know, a few things in my mini fridge, and I had a few things on my, on my stand next to my mini fridge.

And I just remember those times where, like, I'm out of money to go to, like, the school cafeteria, the college cafeteria, and I like, I have a few things here.

This is when we're creative, you know, your creative juices start to flow.

And this is when my mom and my grandmother would get constant calls from me, and I'm like, "Hey, I have a pack of ramen noodles.

Remember that thing you used to make for me?"

And so that's, you know, they say the mother of invention is necessity, you know and so having those times where you really don't have many options and trying to reimagine certain things is the way you make do with what you have.

You know, it's like you open the refrigerator so often.

And now that I'm approaching 40, I remember just like my nieces and nephews will come to our house sometimes and open the fridge, they're like, "Oh, there's nothing in here!"

And I'm like... (Holly) Oh, yes, there is.

(Kardea) Yes there is.

There's tons of things.

And so I think, I think that the older you get, too, the more you start to start to appreciate that and recognize that there's so many different possibilities in the refrigerator.

You just need a little bit of creation, you know, a little creativity and I think that's what I'm helping others do in this book.

(Holly) Yes, and you can make so much with so little in terms of, you know, ingredients and money.

And another thing that really made me laugh in here, because it stands out to me, in my family, this whole "Manager's Special" thing is like a joke in my home because my dad would always come home with, these things are like, dad, what is that?

Kardea) Yes.

(Holly) And it would say "Manager's Special."

Like, oh, and he, you know, much like you talked about, "We can do this, we can do that with it," you know?

And so you talk about that with I think it was the neck bone.

(Kardea) Yes.

And my mother, like I would always wonder, like she would go get and you'll see, like the orange sticker on it that's big in bold, like you said the "Manager's Special."

And I'm like, "Mom, is this expired?

Like, why, where did you get this from?

Like, why is...?"

She would always tell me, "There's nothing wrong with this.

The store has to get rid of it by a certain time, but it can stay in our fridge or our freezer, longer than that."

And so she, you know, would take that because you would find like, you know, really great cuts of steak or beef or even neck bone and get that and make really great meals out of it when you would pay like normally 3 or 4 more dollars or even sometimes half off, and you know, you would pay more than that, and then you get that Manager's Special and you make whatever it is, you know, if you have to let it sit in your freezer, that's fine.

You could pop it out, you know the next week or two or next month, which my mom would do sometimes.

(Holly) Yeah.

(Kardea) But you could take that and the same great quality of meat and make really great meals.

(Holly) Yes, and this book is all about, like, taking the pressure off you as a cook, thinking that you have to have all these things not just for the certain spices or anything, but the kitchen gadgets.

And I've talked about my dad, my mom's, the kitchen gadget lady.

She loved a kitchen gadget store.

"Oh, I could do this with this," but you really just needed a knife (Kardea) Yeah.

(Holly) and you could do all these things that these gadgets can do with it.

(Kardea) Yes, yes.

(Holly) Tell us a little bit about that and how you kind of make, you know, restore people's confidence with what they have in those drawers.

(Kardea) So I remember my first ever television appearance.

It was called "Dean of Lean" with Bobby Dean, Paula Dean's son and that's how I really got my start.

But I remember coming into that show and the culinary crew, the culinary producers and team came in with all these different gadgets, and I had to make a sweet- I had to make, candied yams on the show, and I have never used a potato peeler up to that point.

I'm like 28 years old, and I've never used a potato peeler because I was so used to my grandmother using just a little sharp paring knife- (Holly) Yeah.

(Kardea) -to skin our potatoes.

And so they were like, "Kardea, we're going to have to have you peel your potato on TV live."

And I'm like, "Well, do you guys have a knife I can use?"

They're like, "No."

(Holly) "What is this thing?"

(Kardea) They give me the potato peeler and I'm like, "What do you do?

What do you do with this?"

And they're like, "Oh my gosh, have you never used a potato peeler?"

And I, you know, reluctantly I'm like, "No, I don't know what to do!"

And I'm like, "Do you guys just have a knife?"

They're like, "No, just use the potato peeler We're not going to have - because it's going to take longer.

But the, just I say that to say like my entire life, I mean, I think I was so used to my mom using this one dull knife I think she had since I was born And so, you know, I never - food processor.

What was that?

(Holly) Right?

(Kardea) We may have had a blender, but I think she never really used the blender.

But so, like, her greatest tool was- (Holly) It was in a cabinet forever.

(Kardea) Exactly!

My grandmother did have her handy dandy hand mixer, from like, the 60s, and we did we we saw that during the holidays and when she wanted to make her her cakes.

But for the most part, it was just these.

(Holly) Yeah, you can do it.

Alright, so let's talk about how far you've come - - the younger you.

Let's talk about that 20 something year old okay?

In new Jersey?

(Kardea) I went to New Jersey for grad school.

(Holly) Okay.

Okay.

So you can go back even a little farther than that.

If you were to tell that younger you what you are doing now.

(Kardea) Oh, my gosh.

(Holly) How would that conversation go?

(Kardea) I would tell my younger me to relax and it's going to work out.

It's gonna unfold better than you would have ever imagined and to relinquish some of that control.

You know, I thought, you know, coming out of high school, going into college, like I had this plan set up.

I'm like, "I'm going to go to college, I'm going to go to grad school, I'm going to become a social worker.

And then I'm going to also open up my own nonprofit organization, and then I'm going to get married, and then I'm going to have children.

I'm going to do all of this before 30."

<both laugh> Little did the universe and...little did my younger self know at the time that that was not going to pan out the way that it I imagined it to be and, you know, they say the old saying, my grandmother would always say like you, you know, "You make a plan and God laughs."

(Holly) Right?

(Kardea) And it's just like, "Oh, honey, that's not what I'm planning for you.

It's something much bigger."

And so I made these plans for myself, and I think I would tell my younger self to relax.

It's all going to unfold out.

It's all going to unfold better than you could have ever imagined and just, you know, enjoy the ride!

(Holly) Yes, and it seems like you are enjoying the ride.

Clearly things worked out well and are working out well.

Let's talk about the restaurant.

I mean, you've got your hands in so much stuff.

Well, tell me what that's all about and how it's going.

(Kardea) So, my restaurant, "Kardea Brown's Southern Kitchen," just opened at the Charleston International Airport, and we had the soft launch in April, but the grand opening was in May.

And that was incredible too, because I travel frequently, and so I'm always in the airport.

To walk into the airport and see my name in big bold letters is crazy, you know, to me.

And, we have - so I love this part because I don't, I don't think - I don't consider my viewers fans.

I don't like the name fans.

I like calling everyone cousin because I feel like we're connected somehow, someway.

(Holly) Yeah.

(Kardea) And so to see the big "Hey Cousins," up in lights is so cool, but it's so nice to have a place where the recipes that I grew up eating can live outside of a cookbook.

And so, I always say that it's kind of like, it's my way of honoring my family and our family traditions and coming to Charleston because, you know, we're all about hospitality in Charleston.

So not only is it an experience, for eating and, you know, getting a quick bite before you get on your flight or when you get off your flight.

But it's an entire experience, like when you come in, the front of the house says, we scream, "Hey cousins!"

And we really make you feel at home.

And so it's it's really nice to have a place like this exist.

It's something that I've pretty much dreamt about my entire life.

(Holly) I love that.

I feel like I want to go just for the experience alone.

(Kardea) Oh yeah, it's nice.

(Holly) And, you know, when people get off, they's ready, whenever they get to Charleston, they get to South Carolina.

They're ready for that southern hospitality.

And I think, I watched a clip where you said, like, "There's no red rice in this place!"

So you're bringing it.

(Kardea) Oh, for sure.

(Holly) And going ahead and introducing that to them.

(Kardea) Oh yeah.

Because I don't think you think about getting red rice or collard greens or macaroni and cheese before you get on a flight like.

And if you, if you're tired and you need to sleep on your flight.

Please get that.

That'll that'll do it!

<laughs> (Holly) Yeah.

Yeah.

That is comfort food for sure.

Alright, so let's talk about the writing experience.

Did you, did you have like what are the challenges around a cookbook?

(Kardea) I think the first time around, when I published The Way Home, it was all new to me.

and that happened during like the height of Covid.

My, publisher, Amistad Books, which is under HarperCollins, Patrick Bass reached out to me, my editor, and just like a random email he sent an email to me, maybe like April of 2020 and was like, "Hey, I love you.

I love your show.

Have you ever thought about writing a cookbook?

But if you are currently writing one will you consider me for another, cookbook that you're doing?"

And I'm like, "I'm not currently writing a cookbook, but I would love to!"

and he's like, "Okay, great!"

We went through the whole process and, we kind of like, started the cookbook, like the actual writing process.

And that's when I realized I had no idea what I was doing.

And this is the height of Covid.

So, you know, we're sheltering in place.

And so I'm by myself at this point and I'm like, "What do I do?

How do I begin this?"

Like, there's an introduction.

There are, you know, stories that kind of like chapter openings and like, I've never written a book.

I don't know what to do, but I kind of... Luckily, Patrick had connected me with different writers and other publishers of cookbooks so I could ask questions.

And so I'm learning from others, even self-published authors.

Some of my friends have written cookbooks, and I just kind of reached out like, "Hey guys, I don't know where to start.

Can you point me in the right direction?"

And so I got some advice from a lot of my colleagues and different publishers and I kind of just started writing.

And then with the help of, Ylanda Gault, she's a terrific writer, and she helped me kind of put those words onto paper so, yeah.

(Holly) I would think that one of the most challenging parts is actually when it comes down to how much of something you put in a recipe, because it sounds like you're growing up with mom cooking was much like mine, where you say, "How much do you put?"

"Just a little bit."

(Kardea) Yes, yes.

(Holly) Or, "Just grab some."

"Well what is 'some?'"

(Kardea) Or, "A pinch of this."

(Holly) So how did you actually figure out how much?

"How do I tell these people exactly how much to put in there?"

(Kardea) <laughs> I have to thank, Delicious Miss Brown for that, doing the show, because with that, like, I had to learn, like I remember the first season of filming Delicious Miss Brown back in, gosh, 2018 was when we started.

I remember, like, telling my culinary producer and my producer like, you know, they're like, "We gotta come up with the recipes for the show.

We have 13 episodes, so there's going to be 3 or 4 episodes.

I mean, 3 or 4 recipes per episode.

So you're going to have to write all your recipes down.

Do you have a book where they exist?"

And I'm like, "No."

(Holly) Up here.

(Holly) They're up here, and my grandmother has some here and there somewhere.

But I just know how to do it.

So they're like, "Okay, you're going to have to learn how to write recipes.

You're going to have to learn how to test recipes, and you're going to have to learn the format in which Food Network requires recipes."

And I'm like, "Oh...

okay."

And so throughout the years, I've learned how to write recipes.

But from the very beginning I had no clue because like you said, we learned with like "a pinch of this" and you know, "a little bit of that" and, you know, "season to taste.

And I'm like, well, some people honestly don't know how to season to taste.

So you need some type of quantifiable like, you know, measurements.

And so it took a while, but I think I got the hang of it.

(Holly) You're in the groove now.

(Kardea) Yeah.

(Holly) Alright okay.

So for this, this show is viewed by those outside of the South.

So let's tell them what Gullah Geechee cooking is like.

(Kardea) Sure.

So we are direct descendants of West African enslaved people.

Our food is very much rooted in West African culture and in ways like a lot of our foods are one pot.

A lot of our foods are like stewed, very seasonal, recipes.

Like we do not eat oysters outside of a month that doesn't have the letter ‘R.'

And people think it's crazy when I say that in like the colder months where the water is colder is better for oysters.

(Holly) Yeah.

(Kardea) The hotter the water is, you just don't.

You know, you want to stay away from that.

We eat, like, again, we eat everything that's seasonal.

A lot of our dishes include okra and tomato and, we love our seafood.

We love our seafood in the Gullah Geechee community.

Again, because my great grandfather actually made shrimping nets by hand.

He had a little tool that was like a sharpened tool, that was, I believe, like he made it with like a spoon.

And he'd create these nets for the people in the community on Wadmalaw Island.

And so, again, that's what we ate back then.

Well, my ancestors and my grandparents, they ate what they caught in the river, in the creek and what they, grew on their land.

So our food is just like when you think about southern food, sometimes you just kind of think about all the fried chicken and the macaroni and cheese, like we have that.

(Holly) Yeah.

Oh, there's so much more.

(Kardea) There's so much more to it.

It's definitely not a monolith.

(Holly) Right.

And that brings me back to a memory I have on this show where I interviewed someone who also has some recipes within her book and they included things like squirrel and rabbit.

And I'm like, you know, how do you stay true to your roots, but also cater to an audience that is going to eat all of that because I'm not sure how many people are actually going to cook that stuff.

So how do you do that balance?

(Kardea) So I give readers and people a substitution, you know, just in case, because I like neck bone.

I love, like - people think I'm absolutely crazy when I say this - I love, like, pig feet.

<laughs> We eat that in our family.

And so people are like, "I'm not eating that, and where do you buy that?"

So if you don't want to use, like, you know, stewed neck bone or anything of that sort, you can use another substitution or, you know, just omit it.

Make it vegitarian.

(Holly) Yeah, but It's not going to taste as good.

(Kardea) Yeah!

That's right.

You cannot replace a neck bone like I'm sure of that.

(Holly) At least give it a try.

(Kardea) Yeah, right.

(Holly) Alright, so you started off kind of wanting to change the world in terms of social work.

(Kardea) Yes.

(Holly) You've kind of taken a different path.

How do you still feel that you want to do that, though, through the work that you do, and hopefully changing people in some way through this work?

(Kardea) Well, you know, I always say this: Once a social worker, always a social worker.

I'm constantly interacting with people, especially like, when I do like the judging shows on Spring Baking and Holiday Baking and Kids Baking.

I'm always interacting with people.

And so I think that social worker you know, community outreach is kind of always in my heart.

Like it's a running joke now on set that when I do the baking shows and we have contestants because it's really hard, those shows are hard.

And you get burnt out and a lot of our bakers and our contestants go through personal issues behind the scenes.

And so whenever that happens, we sometimes have like off camera meltdowns and all these things, so they know to send me in, send the reinforcements, which is me.

(Holly) She's trained and ready.

Let's go.

<laughs> (Kardea) And so I come in and kind of de-escalate situations.

So I'm using it still to this day.

Like I'm always that's just the heart of what I do is people to people interaction and connection.

(Holly) I'm so glad you went there because I wouldn't have considered it, but it makes perfect sense.

(Kadrea) Oh yeah.

(Holly) So a lot of times on this show we're seeing some of that of course, I mean, it's what makes good TV, right?

(Kardea) Exactly.

(Holly).

Yeah they're crying It's rejection.

It's awful.

(Kardea) All of it, and I am definitely there to kind of put on my social worker hat and counselor hat.

And I usually help them get through those tough times.

(Holly) Yes.

Alright so that's where you were trained, still using it.

And that brings me to this question that I love.

And our viewers can't see, but as you can see, we have a whole lot of students ahead of us.

We have our first ever high school field trip right now from Bluffton High School.

They're media students.

And then we have the University of South Carolina Beaufort students who work the show and production, which is so cool.

But these students are at that time in their life, like, okay, "The real world's starting and what do I do?"

(Kardea) Yeah.

(Holly) What kind of advice would you give them right now?

(Kardea) Oh, my gosh, I say, just be open.

You know, you can't be - Now, depending on what you want to do, like if you want to be a doctor, there has to be some type of, you know, step and like, plan to do that, you know, but I say, don't be so rigid and don't be so hard on yourself, you know, just really allow yourself to kind of get into what you love to do.

And I see the students here on the camera operations here.

This is a great way to start to do that, because you kind of get that real world experience.

And so, when it is time for you to go into whatever you want to do, you can say, hey, either I like it or I don't.

And don't be afraid to switch careers or paths.

Like if you start in, say, hey, I went to school for psychology and I ended up cooking.

(Holly) Yeah.

(Kardea) And so it's okay.

No one says that if you start with one thing, you have to stick with it.

So often I meet people in their 40s, 50s, mid life to to later stage in life like, "Hey, I don't want to do this anymore.

I want to do something else.

I want to do my passion."

And so, don't be afraid to say, "Hey, this didn't work out" or "I don't like this."

Do what makes you happy in life because life will, gosh, <snaps> go by so quickly.

One minute you know, you're youthful in your 20s and you're having the time of your life.

And the next minute you're like, you know, approaching your 40s and your knees are cracking and things are happening (Holly) "Woah, what happened?"

and you don't know what's going on and why you're feeling the way that you feel.

So enjoy it while you can.

And also just don't put any limitations on yourself.

Like have fun.

(Holly) Yeah.

And I have to wonder when you got some of those big time calls that really were big opportunities, was it an automatic yes?

Or was there something inside of you doubting, wondering?

(Kardea) Yeah.

(Holly) Is this for me?

Can I do this?

(Kardea) I mean, you kind of always have that doubt in the back of your mind, and because I did not go to culinary school and because I didn't have that formal training, sometimes I would get that imposter syndrome, where I felt like, "Oh my gosh, are you calling me to sit next to Martha Stewart?"

And I'm sitting next to like Alex Guarnaschelli and you know, all of these big people.

And I'm like, "Do I belong at this table?

Is this real?"

And you have to really, you know, believe that these offers and these opportunities are not sent to you for, you know, for for giggles, it's real.

And you have to take that step and that leap of faith sometimes and kind of believe in yourself when no one else does.

(Holly) Yeah.

(Kardea) But I definitely got those moments, those pinch me moments like, oh my gosh, are you guys really calling me to do this?

(Holly) Let's go!

<laughs> (Kardea) That's, you know it.

And if you don't know, you figure it out on the way.

(Holly) Yeah ,yeah.

Alright, well, anything else left?

I mean, you've checked the boxes on so many things.

The restaurant, the books, the TV shows.

Anything else that is on your wishlist?

(Kardea) Oh my gosh.

Well, it was to win Emmys, and I did recently - (Holly) You did that, yes!

(Kardea) -just won two Emmys.

(Holly) Congrats!

(Kardea) And I'm up for another one with Kids Baking next year, and so it's exciting.

And like my biggest thing right now because I'm newly married, we just got married back in March.

(Holly) Congratulations!

(Kardea) Thank you!

I think now we're excited about expanding our family.

So that's next on the checklist.

(Holly) Alright, well we are so glad that you came.

Thank you so much.

This was a wonderful conversation, and, really excited for you.

(Kardea) Thank you.

(Holly) Especially you being the neighbor down the street!

That's great.

And thank you, everyone for joining us.

We really appreciate having you around.

I'm Holly Jackson, the host for Books by the River.

Until the next book.

(Kardea) I would like to share one of my favorite excerpts from the book.

And I think it's one that kind of resonates with me the most.

I mean I love the entire introduction, but this is what really sticks out to me.

Look back at it.

Okay, now before you go there, let me explain.

This is all about reflection.

Take some time to occasionally appreciate how far you've come.

Seriously, I get that we all want the dream to happen yesterday, but that's not realistic.

If we're going to stay fired up, we have to celebrate ourselves along the way.

Say it loud.

"I may not be where I want to be but thank God I am not where I was."

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (Announcer) Major funding for Books by the River is brought to you by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina, the proud partner of South Carolina ETV and Public Radio.

With the generosity of individuals, corporations and foundations.

The ETV Endowment is committed to sharing southern storytelling and compelling conversations with viewers across the nation.

This program is supported by Coastal Community Foundation of South Carolina.

This program is made possible by the support of Peter Zamuka and Lynn Baker.

Additional funding for Books by the River is provided by Visit Beaufort, Port Royal, and Sea Islands and Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USC Beaufort.

♪ ♪