>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT IN A WAR ZONE FURTHER ENFLAMED BY A BLAST AT A GAZA HOSPITAL.

I GET THE LATEST FROM THE U.N.

RELIEF CHIEF, MARTIN GRIFFITHS.

THEN, ANGER UNLEASHED ON THE ARAB STREETS.

JORDAN'S FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER MARWAN MUASHER JOINS ME.

ALSO AHEAD, WHAT ARE AMERICA'S LONG-TERM OPTIONS NOW?

I ASK RICHARD HAASS, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL.

PLUS, HISTORIAN RASHID KHALIDI TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT HOW TODAY'S EVENTS WILL SHAPE THE FUTURE.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT HAS STEPPED INTO A TINDERBOX.

JOE BIDEN CAME TO ISRAEL AS OUTRAGE BOILED OVER ACROSS THE REGION AFTER A GAZA HOSPITAL WAS HIT LAST NIGHT.

ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES SAY IT WAS A FAILED ROCKET LAUNCH BY PALESTINIAN MILITANTS.

THEY POINT AT PALESTINIAN ISLAMIC JIHAD.

BUT PALESTINIAN OFFICIALS IMMEDIATELY BLAMED ISRAEL, PROMPTING STREET PROTESTS FROM LEBANON TO TUNISIA, AND ARAB LEADERS TO CANCEL FACE-TO-FACE MEETINGS WITH BIDEN.

IN TELL ARIVE AVIV TODAY, THE PT SAID THE UNITED STATES SUPPORT TO ISRAEL REMAINS ROCK SOLID.

>> IT WAS THE DEADLIEST DAY FOR THE YJEWISH PEOPLE SINCE THE HOLOCAUST.

THE WORLD WATCHED THEN, IT KNEW, AND THE WORLD DID NOTHING.

WE WILL NOT STAND BY AND DO NOTHING AGAIN, NOT TODAY, NOT TOMORROW, NOT EVER.

>> BIDEN ALSO SAID HE WAS OUTRAGED BY THE EXPLOSION AT THE BAPTIST HOSPITAL, WHICH IS RUN BY THE ANSWEANGLICAN CHURCH.

LISTEN TO ONE MAN TALK ABOUT THE MOMENT OF IMPACT.

>> Translator: I WENT INTO THE BUILDING AND SUDDENLY HEARD THE STRIKES.

MANY OF MY FRIENDS WERE KILLED.

THE SITUATION WAS SO DIFFICULT.

PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE.

THERE WAS NO WARNING.

THEY HIT RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF PEOPLE, SOME PEOPLE DISAPPEARED.

IT WAS HORRIFYING.

>> MEANWHILE, FOR THOSE IN GAZA TRYING TO ESCAPE, THERE IS NOWHERE TO GO.

THIS MAN SAYS HE FEELS COMPLETELY TRAPPED.

>> CURRENTLY, WE'RE AT THE BORDER, I'VE BEEN COMING ALMOST EVERY DAY ON THE HOPES THAT IT'S GOING TO OPEN, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, EVERY DAY, THERE'S NO NEWS.

WE DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN LEAVE OR STAY OR, AT LEAST, WHERE IT IS SAFE TO STAY IN GAZA, WHERE THERE'S NO AIR STRIKES, THERE'S NO BOMBINGS, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, ALL OF GAZA IS UNDER ATTACK.

ALL OF GAZA IS A PLACE, OR A GROUND FOR COMPLETE BOMBING.

SO, I ASK -- I ASK THE PEOPLE OUT THERE, THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE A HEART, WHO DO CARE, TO FIND US A SAFE HAVEN, OR AT LEAST GET -- GET US OUT OF GAZA.

GET US HELP.

>> WELL, THE U.N. IS TRYING TO CARE.

MARTIN GRIFFITHS IS THE EMERGENCY RELIEF COORDINATOR FOR THE U.N., AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM CAIRO.

MARTIN GRIFFITHS, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

THIS IS NOT YOUR FIRST SUCH CRISIS.

YOU'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THESE THINGS ALL OVER THE WORLD FOR THE U.N. TELL ME WHAT EXACTLY IS THE STATUS, AT THE BORDER, IN OTHER WORDS, IN EGYPT, GOING INTO GAZA.

WHY HASN'T HUMANITARIAN AID BEEN ABLE TO GO IN SO FAR?

>> WE'VE BEEN IN INCREDIBLY DETAILED NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE PARTIES TO MAKE AN ANSWERING AND AN AGREEMENT OF EXACTLY WHAT AN AID PROGRAM WOULD LOOK LIKE GOING INTO SOUTHERN GAZA.

AND IT NEEDS TO HAVE THE FOLLOWING ELEMENTS.

NUMBER ONE, IT NEEDS TO GO IN AT SCALE.

WE NEED TO START WITH A SERIOUS NUMBER OF TRUCKS GOING IN AND WE NEED TO BUILD UP TO THE 100 TRUCKS A DAY THAT USED TO BE THE CASE OF THE AID PROGRAM GOING INTO GAZA.

AND BY THE WAY, WITH OUR COLLEAGUES AND AGENTS IN THE RED CRESCENT SYSTEMS OF EGYPT AND PALESTINE, AS WELL AS ACROSS OTHER AGENCIES, WE HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DO THIS.

SO, NUMBER ONE, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THE ASSURANCE THAT WE CAN GO IN AT SCALE EVERY DAY, DELIBERATELY, REPETITIVELY AND RELY RELIABLY RELIABLY.

SECONDLY, WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DO SO TO REACH PEOPLE SAFELY.

INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW IS THERE FOR A REASON.

IT REQUIRES PEOPLE TO MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES ABOUT WHERE TO BE SAFELY, AND IT REQUIRES US AND INDEED ALL OF US TO ENSURE THAT SAFETY AND THE HUMANITARIAN COMMUNITY TO PROVIDE AID TO PEOPLE IN THE PLACES THEY CHOOSE TO BE SAFE.

THOSE TWO THINGS NEED TO BE CLARIFIED, COMMITTED TO, CONFIRMED, AND I HOPE THAT THIS WILL HAPPEN WITHIN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS, SO THAT WE CAN START THAT ESSENTIAL PROGRAM OF AID.

>> SO, LISTEN, I WANT TO PLAY YOU WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID IN HIS SPEECH, BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE TANGIBLE THINGS THAT HE CAME AWAY WITH, AND THAT IS, APPARENTLY AN AGREEMENT FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, TO ALLOW SUCH AID.

LISTEN TO WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID.

>> TODAY, I ASKED THE ISRAELI CABINET THAT I MET WITH FOR SOME TIME THIS MORNING TO AGREE TO THE DELIVERY OF LIFE-SAVING HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE TO CIVILIANS IN GAZA, BASED ON THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE WILL BE INSPECTIONS, AND THAT THE AID SHOULD GO TO CIVILIANS, NOT TO HAMAS.

ISRAEL AGREED THAT THE ASSISTANCE CAN BEGIN TO MOVE FROM EGYPT TO GAZA.

>> I SAW YOU NODDING.

SO, YOU AGREE WITH THAT, RIGHT, THAT IT NEEDS TO BE CHECKED AND THEN THAT -- THAT'S A PRECONDITION?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S ENTIRELY NORMAL.

IT'S A VERIFICATION MECHANISM.

WE HAVE STAFF THAT WE CAN DEPLOY TO DO THAT VERIFICATION.

AS YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR EIGHT AND NINE YEARS, FOR AID GOING INTO NORTHWEST SYRIA.

WE CAN DO THE SAME HERE.

AND WE DO IT QUICKLY.

WE NEED TO AGREE EXACTLY HOW IT'S TO WORK.

WE ALSO NEED TO AGREE WITH THOSE TWO RED CRESCENT AUTHORITIES HOW TO MOVE THE AID, MOST OF WHICH IS AT THE AIRPORT TO THE BORDER, HARD IT OVER TO US AND OTHERS TO MOVE IT TO THE PLACES WHERE PEOPLE CAN -- CAN USE IT WELL.

BUT AS MUCH AS ANYTHING ELSE, THERE HAS TO BE A VERY, VERY PUBLIC CONFIRMATION THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE DEPENDABLE, AND THAT'S WHY I'M DELIGHTED TO HEAR PRESIDENT BIDEN'S STATEMENTS OF TODAY, AND THE IMPORTANT WORK THAT HE'S BEEN DOING IN DIPLOMACY WITH OUR FRIENDS IN ISRAEL.

>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING, BECAUSE THERE YOU ARE IN CAIRO, AND I SPOKE YESTERDAY TO THE PERSON YOU'VE ALSO BEEN SPEAKING TO, AND THAT IS THE EGYPTIAN FOREIGN MINISTER, AND HE TOLD ME ONE OF THE REASONS WHY AID CAN'T GO THROUGH, AND THERE ARE DOZENS, IF NOT HUNDREDS OF TRUCKS PILED UP IN CONVOYS WAITING TO GO IN, IS NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE NEED TO CHECK THEM, BUT BECAUSE THERE ARE AIR STRIKES AROUND RAFA, AND THE AREA HAS BEEN DAMAGED.

CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT?

>> WELL, YES, INDEED, AND THAT'S WHY, AGAIN, JUST TO BE BORING, INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW FORBIDS AIR STRIKES ON PLACES OF CIVILIAN OBJECTS, CIVILIAN INFRA INFRASTRUCTURES.

THAT HOSPITAL THAT YOU SO HORRIFYINGLY CITED EARLIER, WAS JUST ONE SUCH.

SO, BOMBING IS GOING ON, ON CIVILIAN OBJECTS, WHICH HAS TO STOP, FOR US TO BE ABLE TO REACH PEOPLE SAFELY.

IT'S THE SAFETY OF AID, WHICH IS AS IMPORTANT AS ITS DEPENDABILITY DEPENDABILITY.

WE CAN DO IT, BECAUSE WE HAVE THE AID, WE HAVE THE PEOPLE, WE HAVE THE TRUCKS, AND WE CERTAINLY HAVE THE WILL.

DO YOU KNOW, THERE'S 13,000 STAFF STILL IN GAZA.

14,000 STAFF WHO HAVEN'T LEFT AND ARE STILL WILL WORKING BRIEFLY, ALONG WITH MANY, MANY OTHERS, AND THESE PEOPLE ARE AVAILABLE TO DELIVER ACCORDING TO THE USUAL MAN DATE.

WE NEED CLARITY ABOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THAT AID PROGRAM AND WE NEED TO GET MOVING.

>> MARTIN GRIFFITHS, YOU RAISED THE ATTACK, THE HIT, THE BLAST ON THE HOSPITAL.

THE ISRAELIS WENT INTO OVERDRIVE AND DID AN INVESTIGATION WHICH THEY RELEASED.

THE AMERICANS INDEPENDENTLY CONFIRMED IT.

AND THAT THEY BELIEVE, ACCORDING TO ALL THE EVIDENCE, THAT IT WAS A FAILED LAUNCH OF A ROCKET, THEY SPECIFICALLY NAMED PALESTINIAN ISLAMIC JIHAD AND RELEASED INTERCEPTS, AS WELL.

NOW, DO YOU ACCEPT THAT?

IS THAT DONE NOW?

IS THAT -- OKAY, THAT'S IT, THAT'S DONE?

>> WELL, IT'S NOT DONE FOR ME, BECAUSE I'M NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF JUDGING HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AND ATROCITIES OF THAT KIND, AND IT'S DAMN CERTAINLY AN ATROCITY.

THE U.N. WILL CERTAINLY WANT TO DO ITS OWN INVESTIGATION.

IN FACT, MY COLLEAGUE TODAY BRIEFING THE SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKE ABOUT THE NEED FOR SUCH AN INVESTIGATION, AND IT SHOULD BE DONE VERY SOON, VERY QUICKLY.

BUT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT, AS IMPORTANT AS THAT IS, IS TO SAY WE CAN LEARN FROM THIS TO STOP IT HAPPENING TO THE NEXT HOSPITAL, TO THE NEXT SCHOOL, TO THE NEXT INSTITUTION.

WHERE PEOPLE ARE FLEEING.

LET US USE THIS AWFUL ATROCITY, LET US BUILD ON THE TERRIBLE ATROCITY THAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, WHEN THOSE HOSTAGES WERE TAKEN, UNKONCONSCIONABLEUN ARE STILL HIDDEN IN GAZA.

LET US USE THESE EXAMPLES TO TEACH US HOW TO BEHAVE BETTER FOR THE PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL THERE.

>> I THINK THE U.N.

DEMANDS INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIONS, YOU CAN SAY YES OR NO, BUT WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, LET'S SAY THESE ARE THE FACTS ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR BLAST AND THESE PARTICULAR DEATHS.

BUT YOU MENTIONED WORKERS ARE STILL THERE.

HAVE ANY OF THEM LOST THEIR LIVES IN THIS ROUND OF AIR STRIKES?

HAVE OTHER HOSPITALS AND, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIAL LIFE-GIVING FACILITIES, BEING ATTACKED IN THIS ROUND OF AIR STRIKES?

BECAUSE THE ISRAELIS TELL US THAT WE CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT THE PALESTINIAN, QUOTE UNQUOTE, HAMAS MINISTRY OF HEALTH TELLS US.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, AND THIS IS NOT -- THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT WARRING PARTIES HAVEN'T BELIEVED EACH OTHER IN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS, AND TRADED ACCUSATIONS.

WE'VE LOST 15 STAFF MEMBERS -- DEAD.

MY OWN OFFICE -- MY OWN OFFICE HAS LOST FAMILY MEMBERS, DEAD, IN GAZA.

AND WE ARE THE LEAST OF THOSE WHO ARE SUFFERING FROM THE SITUATION THERE.

SO, THE LOSS OF LIFE, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, AS MUCH AS -- WAS LOST IN THE 2014 CONFLICT, HAS BEEN CONSIDERABLE, AND THE WORRYING, CHRISTIANE, IF I MAY, THAT WE ALL HAVE ABOUT THIS, IS, WHERE WILL THIS GO?

WHERE WILL THIS END UP?

WE DO NOT WANT -- WE UNDERSTAND ENTIRELY THE DESIRE TO GET THE HOSTAGES SAFELY HOME AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

I TOTALLY GO FOR THAT BUT WE DO NOT WANT TO CREATE A NEW ANGER, A NEW TERROR IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD THAT WILL DRIVE ANOTHER GENERATION OF LACK OF NEIGHBORLINESS.

WE NEED NEIGHBORS TO GET ON WITH EACH OTHER, AND I'M WORRIED AS THE MORNING AFTER.

DO YOU REMEMBER, CHRISTIANE, THE WAR, THE OCCUPATION OF IRAQ, YOU REMEMBER IT VERY WELL, ONE OF THE MISTAKES THAT WE ALL MADE THERE WAS NOT TO THINK ABOUT THE DAY AFTER, THE END OF THE FIGHTING.

THIS IS AS IMPORTANT NOW IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK.

>> AND INDEED, PRESIDENT BIDEN DID WARN ABOUT THAT, AND WE'LL GET TO THAT A LITTLE BIT LATER.

IN THE MEANTIME, I WANT TO PLAY YOU ONE SMALL SOUND BYTE OF DESPERATION IN TERMS OF HUMANITARIAN NEED, BY ACTUALLY A YOUNG PERSON WHO WORKS FOR US, A JOURNALIST IN GAZA THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

MARTIN, I KNOW, I PARENTALLY, YOU CAN'T SEE THAT, BUT I'M GOING TO SAY WHAT HE TOLD US.

WE DON'T HAVE ANY DRINKABLE WATER.

THERE'S NO DRINKABLE WATER IN GAZA.

WE DRINK TOILET WATER.

I SWEAR, OUR CHILDREN DRINK TOILET WATER.

GIVE ME A QUICK ASSESSMENT OF THE EMERGENCY REGARDING CLEAN WATER.

>> CLEAN WATER IS THE MOST PERILOUS THREAT RIGHT NOW TO THE HEALTH OF THE PEOPLE OF GAZA.

YOU KNOW, THE HEALTH SYSTEM IS IN RUINS, AS WE WELL KNOW.

CLEAN WATER, WHICH ALSO NEEDS FUEL TO GET IT INTO TAPS AND INTO ROOMS WHERE IT CAN BE USED, IS AT AN ABSOLUTE STANDSTILL.

UNRA, WHICH PROVIDES AND HAS DONE FOR MANY YEARS, CLEAN WATER TO PEOPLE UNDER ITS CARE, HAS HAD TO CUT ITS RATION TO ONE LITER PER DAY PER PERSON.

NOW, THE STANDARD RATE, AS YOU KNOW, IS 15 LITERS.

ONE LITER FOR THE LUCKY ONES, SO, I'M NOT SURPRISED BY THE ANGUISH OF YOUR COLLEAGUE.

WE NEED WATER, FOOD, HEALTH, AND THE FUEL TO GET THE WATER TO THOSE WHO NEED IT.

FOUR THINGS THAT WE NEED TO TAKE IN IN THIS AID PROGRAM THAT I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, SHOULD START AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

>> AND WE WILL WAIT TO SEE, BECAUSE THE ISRAELI CABINET, ACCORDING TO PRESIDENT BIDEN, HAS AGREED TO DO THAT.

THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL RELEASED A STATEMENT ON THAT MATTER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS LEFT ISRAEL, AND THE REGION, AFTER FAILING TO HAVE THAT SUMMIT WITH ARAB LEADERS.

LET'S GO NOW TO MARWAN MUASHER, WHO WAS JORDAN'S AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL, AND LATER, JORDAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, MARWAN.

CAN I ASK YOU FIRST AND FOREMOST, HOW DO YOU REACT NOW TO THE FACT THAT YOUR KING, THE PRESIDENT OF EGYPT, THE PRESIDENT OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, CANCELED THEIR SUMMIT WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED, I ASSUME THAT'S WHY, THEY BELIEVED THAT ISRAEL HAD STRUCK THAT BAPTIST HOSPITAL IN GAZA.

WAS IT HASTY?

>> I THINK, CHRISTIANE, PUBLIC OPINION, AFTER THE HOSPITAL ATTACK, WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED THE SUMMIT TO TAKE PLACE.

THE ARAB PUBLIC PUTS THE ATTACK SQUARELY ON ISRAEL, AND UNDER THIS CIRCUMSTANCES, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO HAVE THE SUMMIT TO TAKE PLACE.

THIS IS ONE.

I ALSO THINK THAT THERE WERE NO GUARANTEES THAT THE SUMMIT WOULD HAVE LED TO A CEASE-FIRE, AND THE PUBLIC WOULD HAVE QUESTIONED ITS USEFULNESS, BECAUSE OF THAT.

AND I THINK THE THIRD REASON IS THAT IF THE ISRAELIS FEEL THAT IRAN IS COMPLICIT WITH HAMAS ON THIS ATTACK, THEN THE ARAB PUBLIC ALSO FEELS THERE IS NO DAYLIGHT BETWEEN THE U.S. MONEY STRAGS'S ADMINISTRATION'S POLICY AND THAT OF ISRAEL.

THEY ALSO FURTHER FEEL THAT THERE IS A PROCESS OF DEHUMANIZATION OF PALESTINIANS THAT IS GOING ON.

WHEN ISRAELI CASUALTIES ARE THE THE -- YOU FEEL THERE'S A LOT OF EMPATHY BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, BUT THAT EMPATHY IS LACKING WHEN IT COMES TO PALESTINIANS.

AND UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, I BELIEVE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FOR THE SUMMIT TO TAKE PLACE.

>> CAN I JUST PUSH A LITTLE BIT FURTHER ON THAT?

YOU SAY, NO MATTER THE EVIDENCE, AND THE UNITED STATES HAS INDEPENDENTLY CONFIRMED THE EVIDENCE, THAT THE ARAB STREET NONETHELESS DOESN'T BELIEVE ISRAEL.

IS THAT -- IS THAT SUSTAINABLE FOR THE FUTURE?

>> I THINK, CHRISTIANE, THERE IS A NEED FOR AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION TO TAKE PLACE.

I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO DID IT, BUT THERE IS ALSO STRONG INDICATIONS BY THE OTHER SIDE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT SAME HOSPITAL WAS TARGETED BY ISRAELI ROCKETS LAST SATURDAY.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY, WHO IS, OF COURSE, WHOSE CHURCH IS IN CHARGE OF THE HOSPITAL, PUT SOMETHING ON TWITTER -- ON TWITTER LAST SATURDAY SAYING THAT HIS HOSPITAL WAS BOMBED, AND THAT THERE WERE FOUR INJURIES.

JUST TODAY, HE PUT ANOTHER STATEMENT STATEMENT, YOU KNOW, REITERATING THAT FACT, SO, PALESTINIAN HOSPITAL OFFICIALS ALSO SAID THEY RECEIVED WARNINGS FROM THE IDF AFTER THE FIRST ATTACK TO EVACUATE THE HOSPITAL.

SO, I DON'T THINK WE CAN PASS JUDGMENT, BEFORE WE CAN SEE, YOU KNOW, STRONG EVIDENCE AS TO WHO DID IT.

BUT BEYOND WHO DID IT, CHRISTIANE, BEYOND WHO DID IT, THIS IS A PRELUDE TO THE KIND OF CARNAGE THAT WE ARE GOING TO SEE, IF ISRAEL INVADES GAZA AND I'M AFRAID WE MIGHT SEE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CASUALTIES, IF ISRAEL INDEED GOES IN GAZA.

THAT CANNOT BE UNDER ISRAEL'S, YOU KNOW, RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF.

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT, CUTTING OFF WATER FROM 2 MILLION PALESTINIANS, CANNOT BE CONDONED OR JUSTIFIED IN THE NAME OF THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF.

THAT IS INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND THAT SHOULD BE RESPECTED BY ISRAEL, YOU KNOW, TO THE POINT.

>> NOW, WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE SPOKEN TO MARTIN GRIFFITHS, AND YOU MIGHT HAVE HEARD IT, THERE DOES SEEM TO BE AN AGREEMENT, WHICH, OF COURSE WE'RE GOING TO BE FOLLOWING TO SEE IF IT COMES THROUGH, TO ACTUALLY START ALLOWING, YOU KNOW, WATER AND THAT REST IN, BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, THE DEFENSE MINISTER CALLED A COMPLETE BLOCKADE AND SIEGE OF GAZA LAST WEESHGS AK, AND CLEAR THIS IS A HUGE MATTER OF CONCERN TO THE U.S. AND EVERYBODY IN THE REGION, BUT CAN I ASK YOU THIS -- DO YOU, AND YOU'VE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE ORIGINAL PEACE ACCORDS, OSLO AND THE AFTERMATH, DO YOU THINK, FIRST AND FOREMOST, THAT THERE IS A RISK THAT IRAN, HEZBOLLAH, OTHERS, MIGHT GET EVEN MORE INVOLVED IN -- IN THE BACKLASH TOWARDS ISRAEL RIGHT NOW?

>> I DO NOT BELIEVE AT THIS STAGE, CHRISTIANE, THAT HEZBOLLAH WOULD GET INVOLVED.

HEZBOLLAH UNDERSTANDS THAT IF IT DOES, IT MIGHT FACE A SERIOUS BLOW TO ITS INFRASTRUCTURE.

WE HAVE HAD FIVE ISRAELI INCURSIONS INTO GAZA DURING THE LAST 20 YEARS, AND HEZBOLLAH DID NOT GET INVOLVED IN ANY OF THEM.

ONE OF THEM WAS 51 DAYS, YOU KNOW, OF INCURSION.

SO, UNLESS THERE IS SOMETHING MASSIVE THAT CHANGES THE EQUATION, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT HEZBOLLAH WILL GET INVOLVED.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, BECAUSE I REMEMBER, CERTAINLY, MANY, MANY YEARS AGO, YOUR KING, KING HUSSEIN, WENT TO ISRAEL AND NET AT THE FEET OF THE PARENTS OF THOSE WHO WERE KILLED, ISRAELIS WHO WERE KILLED BY A JORDANIAN TERRORIST.

AND HE ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, OFFERED CONDOLENCES AND ASKED FORGIVENESS.

YOU HAVE A PEACE AGREEMENT WITH WITH -- WITH ISRAEL.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, DO YOU HAVE ANY HOPE THAT A PEACE AGREEMENT CAN, IN ANY WAY, CAN EVENTUALLY BE RESTARTED?

>> I -- I DON'T IN THE SHORT-TERM, AND I I'LL TTELL YO CHRISTIANE.

WHO IS GOING TO START THIS PEACE PROCESS?

THE AMERICANS ARE PREOCCUPIED WITH THEIR ELECTIONS NEXT YEAR.

THEY ARE IN NO GMOOD, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN IN A MOOD TO START NEGOTIATIONS, SINCE JOHN KERRY LAST ABANDONED HIS PEACE EFFORTS.

THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS AT ITS WEAKEST, AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS A VERY HARD-LINE RIGHTIST GOVERNMENT, IS NO MOOD, HAS NOT BEEN IN A MOOD, EVEN BEFORE THIS, FOR ANY POLITICAL COMPROMISE.

THEY HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY DO NOT INTEND TO END OCCUPATION, BY THE WAY, THE OCCUPATION, YOU KNOW, NEEDS TO BE MENTIONED, BECAUSE THAT'S THE ROOT CAUSE OF WHAT WE ARE SEEING, AND WE HAVE TO CONTEXT CONTEXTUALIZE WHAT IS GOING ON.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS IN NO MOOD TO DO THAT.

SO, WHO IS GOING TO LEAD THE PROCESS OF NEGOTIATIONS?

I ALSO WANT TO SAY ANOTHER THING IS, WE CANNOT KEEP, IN THIS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE AND PEACE NEGOTIATIONS THAT LEAD TO NOWHERE, IF THERE IS TO BE A PROCESS, AND I UNFORTUNATELY DO NOT EXPECT ONE, IT HAS TO BE A PROCESS AIMED AT ENDING THE OCCUPATION.

IF THE OCCUPATION DOES NOT END, THEN I'M AFRAID THAT THIS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE ON BOTH SIDES WILL CONTINUE.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE FAR -- I THINK YOU CALLED THEM EXTREMISTS, THE FAR RIGHT NATIONALIST, RELIGIOUS COALITION THAT MAKES UP NETANYAHU'S GOVERNMENT, AND YOU KNOW THAT MANY OF THEM BELIEVE THAT ACTUALLY THE PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK SHOULD PROBABLY GO TO JORDAN AND THAT'S WHERE THEY SHOULD BE AND THAT SHOULD BE A HOMELAND.

NOW, YOUR KING HAS SAID THAT THIS IS A RED LINE, EITHER PUSHING THEM INTO JORDAN OR INTO EGYPT IS A RED LINE.

YOU THINK THAT RED LINE WILL HOLD, OR DO YOU THINK THAT THERE WILL BE PRESSURE, THAT KIND OF PRESSURE ON THE PALESTINIANS IN BOTH THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK AND, YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW IN SOUTHERN GAZA?

>> IF THE ISRAELIS, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT DOES NOT INTEND TO END THE OCCUPATION AND ESTABLISH A SOLUTION, AND THEY HAVE MADE CLEAR THEY DON'T WANT THAT, AND IF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT ON THE OTHER HAND, TODAY, WE HAVE A SLIM MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS UNDER ISRAEL'S CONTROL ALREADY, IF THEY DON'T WANT THAT, THAT CAN ONLY MEAN ONE THING, AN APARTHEID STATE, THEN LOGICALLY, THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE FOR ISRAEL IS TRY TO EFFECT A MASS TRANSFER OF PALESTINIANS FROM GAZA TO EGYPT AND FROM THE WEST BANK TO JORDAN.

AND THAT IS JORDAN'S BIGGEST WORRY.

THE EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT NO REFUGEES WOULD BE ACCEPTED IN EGYPT, AND KING ABDULLAH HAS ALSO MADE IT CLEAR THAT NO PALESTINIAN REFUGEES WILL BE ACCEPTED INTO JORDAN, BECAUSE THAT WILL EMPTY THE WEST BANK AND GAZA OF ITS PALESTINIAN POPULATION, AND THAT WOULD BASICALLY BE WHAT ISRAEL WANTS.

SO, WE ARE IN A VERY TOUGH POSITION, IF THE CONFLICT ESCALATES INTO THE WEST BANK, THEN THAT POSSIBILITY OF MASS TRANSFER IS REAL.

AFTER WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN SYRIA AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN UKRAINE, MASS TRANSFER CANNOT BE RULED OUT.

>> MARWAN MUASHER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>>> I WANT TO TURN NEXT TO RICHARD HAASS, FORMER HIGH LEVEL OFFICIAL AT THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT, AND NOW EMERITUS PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS.

RICHARD HAASS, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I BEGIN BY ASKING YOU, HOW YOU ASSESS, AS AN AMERICAN DIPLOMAT, THE SUCCESS OR NOT OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S VISIT TO ISRAEL TODAY?

>> I THINK HE WAS DEALT, CHRISTIANE, AN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT HAND, AND I THINK HE PLAYED IT EXTREMELY WELL.

AND HE HAD TO IMPROVISE ALONG THE WAY.

THE ORIGINAL INTENT WAS TO OBVIOUSLY MAKE THESE TWO STOPS, GO TO ISRAEL, GIVE, YOU KNOW, GIVE SUPPORT PUBLICLY, PRIVATELY GIVE CAUTIONARY ADVICE, AND THEN HAVE A SEPARATE MEETING WITH THE ARAB LEADERS, AND SEE WHAT THEY COULD DO TO HELP EITHER, YOU KNOW, WITH REFUGEES, WITH AID, WITH HOSTAGE EXCHANGES, WITH BRINGING ABOUT SOME TYPE OF A LOWERING OF VIOLENCE, BUT THEN BECAUSE OF THE HOSPITAL INCIDENT, THAT PART OF THE DIPLOMACY WAS LOST, SO, PRESIDENT BIDEN BASICALLY HAD TO PIVOT.

AND THE SPEECH HE GAVE TODAY WAS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY.

AND WHAT HE HAD TO DO WAS ESSENTIALLY BLEND SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL, AT THE SAME TIME, WHAT HE WAS GOING TO SAY IN PRIVATE, HE SAID IN PUBLIC, AND HE SAID, ESSENTIALLY, YOU CAN'T LAY SIEGE TO GAZA.

WE SUPPORT HUMANITARIAN AID GETTING IN THERE.

WE'RE AGAINST SOMETHING LARGE THAT DOESN'T DISTINGUISH BETWEEN HAMAS AND THE PEOPLE OF GAZA.

YET HE WAS STILL VERY SUPPORTIVE.

SO, I THINK HE DID EXTRAORDINARILY WELL UNDER VERY DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES, BUT THAT SAID, HE'S NOW LEFT THE REGION, AND I THINK WHAT COMES NEXT IS STILL VERY MUCH UP IN THE AIR.

>> INDEED.

AND YOU JUST HEARD MARWAN MUASHER, SOMEBODY WHO YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, VERY WELL, AND WHO HAS BEEN IN THE PEACE CAMP FOREVER, AND HE BASICALLY SAYS, AND LIKE MANY ARABS BELIEVE, THAT WHEN IT DOES COME TO THIS ATROCIOUS, ATROCIOUS SLAUGHTER OF ISRAELIS COMPARED TO THE DEATHS AND THE KILLINGS OF PALESTINIANS UNDER AIR STRIKES AND THINGS, THERE IS MORE EMPATHY FROM THE UNITED STATES TO ISRAELIS.

I WANT TO PLAY THIS SOUND BYTE FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN WHEN HE WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THE ACTUAL HOSPITAL ATTACK EARLIER THIS MORNING IN ISRAEL.

>> I WAS DEEP LY SADDENED AND OUTRAGED BY THE EXPLOSION AT THE HOSPITAL IN GAZA YESTERDAY, AND BASED ON WHAT I'VE SEEN, IT APPEARS AS THOUGH IT WAS DONE BY THE OTHER TEAM.

NOT YOU.

BUT THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE, NOT SURE.

>> SO, NOW WE KNOW THAT THE U.S.

INDEPENDENTLY BELIEVES IT IS AS ISRAEL SAID THAT IT WAS A FAULTY ISLAMIC JIHAD ROCKET, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE OTHER TEAM, NOT YOUR TEAM.

AND WHETHER YOU THINK THAT -- I'M NOT ASKING FOR A COMPETITION OF EMPATHY, BUT WHETHER, IN FACT, IN THE GENERAL ATTEMPT TO SOLVE THIS -- THIS -- THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS TERRIBLE WOUND BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS, THAT THERE IS A LACK OF EMPATHY ON THE OTHER SIDE, FOR THE OTHER SIDE.

>> I DON'T THINK SO, AND I THINK EVEN IF ISRAEL HAD DONE THIS, LET'S JUST TAKE THE WORST POSSIBLE CASE, THAT THEY HAD DONE THIS, IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN WITH INTENT.

AND THAT'S WHAT FUNDAMENTALLY DISTINGUISHES IT FROM WHAT HAMAS DID, BECAUSE EVERYTHING HAMAS DID ON OCTOBER 7th WAS WITH INTENT.

BUT MORE BROADLY, I THINK THE UNITED STATES, FOR, WHAT, FOR DECADES NOW, HAS TRIED TO BALANCE, OR MANAGE, A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL, WHICH IT OBVIOUSLY HAS FOR A HOST OF HISTORICAL AND CULTURAL AND DEMOGRAPHIC AND YOU NAME IT REASONS, POLITICAL REASONS, WITH ALSO A LARGER ROLE IN THE REGION.

AND THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT'S BEEN ABLE TO BROKER WHAT PEACE THERE IS, WHETHER IT'S BETWEEN ISRAEL AND EGYPT, ISRAEL AND JORDAN, THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS, AND SO FORTH.

SO, WE'VE BASICALLY BEEN ABLE TO MANAGE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL WITH SUFFICIENT EMPATHY AND CONNECTIONS TO THE ARAB WORLD.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY UNDER SAUDI ARABIA STRAIN IN THE CURRENT CRISIS, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THERE'S NO ONE ELSE THAT'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO TALK TO BOTH SIDES, AND THAT'S WHY, BY THE WAY, COMING BACK TO SOMETHING MARWAN WAS SAYING, YEAH, IT'S MAYBE UNDERSTANDABLE THAT THE ARAB LEADERS, BECAUSE OF PUBLIC OPINION WOULDN'T IMMEMEET WITH PRESIDENT, BUT REALLY SHORT-SIGHTED.

IT'S NOT ONLY THEY SIGNED ONTO THE FACT THAT THIS MUST HAVE BEEN ISRAEL, BUT JUST SAY IT HAD BEEN ISRAEL.

IT STILL WOULD HAVE ARGUED WITH THEM MEETING WITH THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, BECAUSE THAT WAY HE WOULD GET THEIR VIEWS.

SO, IT'S -- IT'S ONLY MADE HIS ROLE, I THINK, MORE DIFFICULT, AND IT'S FED THE -- WHAT'S BEHIND YOUR QUESTION, I'M NOT ACCUSING YOU OF THIS, BUT THE IDEA THAT THE UNITED STATES IS ONE-SIDED HERE.

WELL, IT DOESN'T HELP WHEN THE OTHER SIDE DOESN'T MEET WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I THINK EVERYBODY WANTS TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS STILL SOME LIFE LEFT IN THE LIFELESS BODY OF THE PEACE PROCESS.

AND AS MARWAN WAS SAYING, IT REALLY HAS HAD NO AMERICAN ATTENTION, NO SERIOUS AMERICAN ATTENTION SINCE KERRY'S LAST TRIP IN 2009.

AND YOU KNOW THIS, THAT THE U.S. HAS NOT THOUGHT THAT IT WAS ACTUALLY DOABLE, WORTHWHILE, YOU KNOW, TO SPEND POLITICAL CAPITAL OR WHATEVER, TO TRY TO ACHIEVE THIS.

AND IN THE MEANTIME, THE WHOLE THING HAS, IN THIS PARTICULAR REGARD, ANY IDEA OF PEACE, IS COMPLETELY INTENDED AND APPEARED TO BE OFF THE TABLE.

THAT ALSO MUST BE DANGEROUS.

DO YOU THINK THAT CAN BE RESUSCITATED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM?

>> LOOK, THE PATIENT IS CLEARLY ON LIFE SUPPORT.

BUT YOU KNOW, IF I CAN PARAPHRASE WINSTON CHURCHILL, A TWO-STATE SOLUTION IS THE WORST IDEA FOR THE EQUATION, EXCEPT FOR ALL THE OTHERS.

IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO GIVE THE PALESTINIANS SOME, EVEN IF NOT ALL, OF WHAT THEY WANT, BUT CONSIDERABLE DEGREE OF CONTROL OVER THEIR LIVES.

IF ISRAEL WANTS TO REMAIN A JEWISH AND A DEMOCRATIC STATE, THE ONLY WAY ISRAEL CAN HAVE BOTH, IF THERE'S A SEPARATE PALESTINIAN STATE, ISRAEL CANNOT BE DEMOCRATIC, IF IT'S OVERSEEING 5 MILLION PALESTINIANS.

IT CAN'T BE JEWISH IF THEY HAVE FULL CITIZENSHIP.

SO, I HAVE NO ILLUSIONS, TRUST ME, I'VE SPENT MORE YEARS WORKING ON THIS THAN I CAN COUNT, BUT I AM HOPING THAT ONE OF THE LESSONS OF WHAT'S HAPPENED IS ABSENT THE POLITICAL TRACK IN THE MIDDLE EAST, GROUPS LIKE HAMAS BECOME THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

SO, THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG PROCESS, IT'S GOT TO START, I THINK IT STARTS IN THE WEST BANK, IT STARTS WITH ISRAEL, AND YOU'RE RIGHT, IT HAS TO START ALSO WITH THE UNITED STATES.

WE HAVE -- WE BOUGHT INTO, I THINK, TOO MUCH THE IDEA THAT THE REGION COULD STAY QUIET WITH WHAT YOU MIGHT CALL A TOP-DOWN APPROACH, JUST BRING IN ALL THE ARAB GOVERNMENTS AND THAT WILL BE ENOUGH AND THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE WILL JUST SIT THERE.

I THINK THAT WAS SHORT-SIGHTED.

I THINK IT WAS WRONG.

I DON'T THINK THE UNITED STATES COULD HAVE PROMOTED NEGOTIATIONS.

WHAT I WISH WE HAD DONE MORE OF, CHRISTIANE, WAS PRESERVE THE POSSIBILITY OF A PALESTINIAN STATE.

WE OUGHT TO HAVE PUSHED BACK MUCH HARDER AGAINST SETTLEMENT ACTIVITY, WE SHOULD HAVE PUSHED HARDER FOR ISRAEL TO GRANT PALESTINIANS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES GREATER SELF GOVERNMENT.

I THINK WE'VE ERRED BY MORE ACTS OF EMISSION THAN COMISSION.

>> THAT WOULD REQUIRE KNOWING WHAT THE END GAME OF THE WAR AGAINST HAMAS IS, BECAUSE, AS YOU SAY, AND AS EVERYBODY WILL AGREE AND ACCEPT RIGHT NOW, AND HAS ALWAYS ACCEPTED, THAT HAMAS IS NOT A PARTNER FOR PEACE, AND AS LONG AS HAMAS IS THERE, THERE'S NO -- THERE'S NO HOPE FOR THIS -- WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

SO, WHAT -- >> CAN I JUST DISAGREE?

>> OKAY.

>> I THINK THERE IS.

I THINK WHAT THE UNITED STATES HAS TO -- THERE'S NO HOPE WITH HAMAS, I AGREE WITH THAT.

I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS MAKE THE PEACE PROCESS VERY REAL IN THE WEST BANK.

ROLL BACK SETTLEMENT ACTIVITY, OPEN UP A SERIOUS NEGOTIATION, LAY OUT THE CONTOURS OF A PALESTINIAN STATE, AND ULTIMATELY MOVE TOWARDS THAT IN THE WEST BANK.

IF THAT CAN HAPPEN, IF WE CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT THERE REALLY IS A SERIOUS, VIABLE, MEANINGFUL PATH FOR PALESTINIANS WHO RULE OUT VIOLENCE AND WHO ARE WILLING TO COEXIST WITH ISRAEL, THEN WE'VE GOT SOMETHING TO COMPETE WITH HAMAS WITH.

NOW, I CAN'T SAY WE'RE GOING TO WIN, SO, YOU MAY END UP WITH A THREE-STATE SOLUTION.

A PALESTINIAN STATE IN THE WEST BANK, AND A SEPARATE ENTITY UNDER HAMAS, BUT MY GUESS IS THAT EVEN IF YOU BEGAN, SOONER OR LATER, THE SUCCESS OF A PALESTINIAN STATE THAT WAS COEXISTING PEACEFULLY, HAD TRADE WITH ISRAEL, THE SUCCESS THERE WOULD CREATE ALL SORTS OF PRESSURES ON GAZA.

SO, MY VIEW IS, THE WAY TO BEGIN IS NOT WITH GAZA, NOT WITH HAMAS, BEGIN WITH THE WEST BANK, AND CREATE PRESSURES ON -- ULTIMATELY, A COMPETITIVE PRESSURE THERE.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

OF COURSE, IT WOULD REQUIRE THE CURRENT COALITION IN ISRAEL TO COMPLETELY CHANGE ITS STRIPES, BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE THAT AT ALL FOR THE WEST BANK, QUITE THE OPPOSITE, AS WE WERE DISCUSSING WITH MARWAN.

>> 100%.

>> ON THE ISSUE OF GAZA, I NEED TO ASK YOU, THOUGH, BECAUSE THE IDEA OF THE ISRAELIS IS TO -- IS TO DISABLE HAMAS, MILITARILY AND POLITICALLY.

SO, WHAT DO YOU SEE, BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD WHAT THE PLAN IS, IF THEY EVEN MANAGE TO DO THAT MILITARILY.

WHAT IS THE PLAN THE DAY AFTER?

WHAT IS THE DAY AFTER?

PRESIDENT BIDEN WARNED THEM ABOUT RAGE, ABOUT WHAT AMERICA DID AND ALL THE MISSTEPS AFTER 9/11 WITH IRAQ AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE PLAN, OR COULD BE THE PLAN FOR THE RESULT OF A GROUND WAR INTO GAZA?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE IS A PLAN.

AND I DON'T THINK THERE CAN BE.

THE IDEA THAT THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY WOULD STEP IN AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO HAMAS IS LAUGHABLE.

THE IDEA THAT THE ARAB GOVERNMENTS, EGYPT OR ANYBODY ELSE, WOULD STEP IN, IS EQUALLY LAUGHABLE.

HAMAS IS GOING TO BE THERE, WHETHER IT'S CALLED HAMAS OR HAS ANOTHER NAME.

SOMETHING LIKE IT IS GOING TO BE THERE.

AND THE BEST YOU CAN DO THEN IS GO BACK TO SOME SORT OF MANAGEMENT.

ISRAEL NEEDS TO REBUILD ITS DEFENSES IN ITS SOUTHWEST, SO WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th COULD NEVER, EVER HAPPEN AGAIN.

THAT'S THE BEST THING ISRAEL COULD DO.

IT COULD RE-ESTABLISH DETERRENCE WITH LIMITED AIR STRIKES OR LIMITED GROUND OPERATIONS AS NEED-BE.

HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES WOULD FLOW INTO GAZA.

LOOK, ISRAEL HAS LIVED WITH NONPEACE ON OTHER BORDERS, WITH SYRIA AND LEBANON AND SO FORTH, SO, I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY THE BEST YOU CAN HOPE FOR NOW.

>> REALLY INTERESTING.

THANK YOU.

RICHARD HAASS, FOR THAT REALLY INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE THERE.

THANK YOU.

>>> SO, WHAT WILL AMERICA'S UNWAVERING SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL MEAN FOR LONG-TERM PEACE AS WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING?

IN A RECENT "NEW YORK TIMES" OPINION PIECE, PALESTINIAN AMERICAN HISTORIAN RASHID KHALIDI RAISES HIS CONCERNS OVER U.S. POLICY.

AND THE COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR TALKS TO MICHEL MARTIN.

THIS CONVERSATION WAS RECORDED JUST BEFORE THE HOSPITAL BLAST IN GAZA LAST NIGHT.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

PROFESSOR, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> CAN I JUST START WITH THE HUMAN QUESTION?

YOU KNOW, HOW ARE YOU?

>> I'VE BEEN BETTER.

I'VE BEEN THROUGH A WAR IN LEBANON FOR NINE OR TEN YEARS, SO, I'VE HAD THE EXPERIENCE CLOSE UP.

BUT WHAT I'M HEARING FROM FAMILY IN PALESTINE AND WHAT I'M HEARING FROM MY STUDENTS IS VERY DISTRESSING, BUT WE'RE MANAGING SO FAR.

>> COULD YOU JUST GIVE ME A SENSE OF, JUST WHAT YOUR REACTION WAS, WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND WHEN YOU HEARD OF THE EVENTS OF LAST WEEK, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, WE ARE A WEEK, ABOUT A WEEK OR SO PAST THE ATTACK, WHICH SORT OF SET OFF THIS CURRENT -- THE CURRENT SITUATION THAT WE'RE HERE TO TALK ABOUT.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR MIND?

>> WELL, I WAS SHOCKED AND SURPRISED WHEN IT STARTED, OBVIOUSLY.

I WAS HORRIFIED BY THE -- BY THE INITIAL ACCOUNTS AND THE IMAGES THAT CAME OUT OF ISRAEL INITIALLY.

AND I BEGAN TO FEAR FOR GAZA.

THE PEOPLE OF GAZA, BECAUSE I KNEW THAT WHAT WOULD FOLLOW WOULD BE HELLISH, AND IT HAS BEEN.

AND IT IS EXTENDED NOW TO OTHER AREAS, SO FAR IN A LIMITED WAY, BUT I'M VERY, VERY FEARFUL FOR WHAT MAY BE TO COME.

>> SO, ONE OF THE REASONS WE CALLED YOU IS THAT YOU ARE AN HISTORIAN, AND I THINK -- AND YOU'VE WRITTEN A PIECE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT PEOPLE CAN READ, IF THEY ARE SO INCLINED, AT THE CORE OF IT, FROM MY READ OF IT, IS THAT YOU WANT TO MAKE THE POINT THAT HISTORY DIDN'T START LAST WEEK.

SO, AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY WERE THE SEMINOLE EVENTS THAT ARE RELEVANT TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW?

>> I'LL TRY AND BE BRIEF, BUT VERY SIMPLY, THE BULK OF THE POPULATION IN THE GAZA STRIP ARE NOT FROM GAZA.

THEY ARE REFUGEES WHO WERE DRIVEN OUT OF THEIR HOMES IN THE SOUTHERN PARTS OF WHAT IS NOW ISRAEL.

SO, THE SETTLEMENTS THAT WERE OVERRUN ON SATURDAY, IN MANY PLACES, ARE IN PLACE OF PALESTINIAN TOWNS AND VILLAGES.

THAT THESE PEOPLE WHOSE PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS WERE DRIVEN INTO THE GAZA STRIP.

SO, THIS IS A REFUGEE POPULATION, MADE REFUGEES IN THE GREAT MAJORITY IN 1948.

THE SECOND THING, THEY HAVE BEEN IMPRISONED IN A SORT OF OPEN AIR PRISON CAMP SINCE 2007.

THERE'S BEEN A SIEGE AN A BLACK CADE BLOCKADE.

MOST PEOPLE IN THE GAZA STRIP HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO LEAVE THE GAZA STRIP IN THAT TIME.

MOST PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO THIS FOR MUCH OF, IF NOT MOST OF THEIR LIVES.

ABOUT HALF ARE CHILDREN.

SO, THEY'VE LIVED THEIR ENTIRE LIFE BLOCKADED IN AN AREA A LITTLE SMALLER THAN DETROIT, 2.2 OR 2.3 MILLION PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S SOME OF THE HISTORY.

THERE'S A MUCH DEEPER HISTORY TO THE FAILURE, THE UTTER FAILURE OF THE UNITED STATES TO DO ANYTHING TO RESOLVE THIS, THE EFFORTS OF THE '90s FAILED AND NOTHING HAS BEEN REALLY DONE SINCE THEN.

THERE IS THE FAILURE OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO OFFER ANY POLITICAL HORIZON TO THE PALESTINIANS OVER A VERY LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

THERE ARE MANY OTHER THINGS.

>> WHY NOW?

AND I JUST WANT TO EMPHASIZE AGAIN FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY BE JOINING OUR CONVERSATION THAT YOU'RE NOT A SPOKESPERSON FOR HAMAS, YOU'RE NOT PART -- HAMAS IS A POLITICAL PARTY WITH A MILITARY WING THAT'S A POLITICAL MOVEMENT, BUT YOU'RE NOT A SPOKESMAN FOR THEM, YOU'RE NOT A STRATEGIST FOR THEM, BUT I AM INTERESTED, AS A HISTORIAN, AND WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON WHY THIS HAPPENED NOW?

I MEAN, THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARGUE THAT THIS IS BECAUSE THE U.S., ISRAEL, AND SAUDI ARABIA HAVE BEEN PART OF THESE TALKS TO TO, YOU KNOW, CONSIDER NORMALIZING RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN SAUDI ARABIA AND ISRAEL AND THIS WAS MEANT TO DISRUPT IT, YOU KNOW, OTHER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE, AND OTHER PEOPLE SAY THIS IS JUST -- THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, OF HAMAS' KIND OF SUICIDAL, YOU KNOW, TENDENCIES.

>> THE FIRST THING IS, IT WOULD REALLY BE WORTHWHILE FOR THE PEOPLE WHO BABBLE ON ABOUT HAMAS, AT ONE STAGE, IT WAS SUPPORTED AND ENCOURAGED BY THE ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE SERVICES AS A COUNTER TO THE PLO, BACK IN THE 1980s WHEN IT WAS FOUNDED.

ISRAELI ANALYSTS HAVE TALKED ABOUT THAT.

THERE'S A LOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT THAT.

SECONDLY, IT HAS EVOLVED OVER TIME.

IT HAS ALL KINDS OF ELEMENTS THAT I PERSONALLY FIND OBJECTIONABLE, IN THEIR POLITICS AND IN THEIR PRACTICE, BUT THEY HAVE CHANGED IN VARIOUS WAYS OVER TIME.

THE THIRD THING THAT I WOULD SAY IS, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED STARTING A WEEK AGO SATURDAY AS THE BEGINNING OF THIS.

THEY HAVE BEEN PLANNING THIS FOR AWHILE.

AND THE REASONS THAT THEY GAVE, THEIR MILITARY COMMANDER GAVE A STATEMENT EARLY IN THE MORNING OF SATURDAY, OCTOBER 7th, WHERE HE SAID, JERUSALEM, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN JERUSALEM, SETTLEMENTS, WHAT'S HAPPENING IN TERMS OF THE EXPANSION OF SETTLEMENTS AND WHAT ISRAELI SETTLERS IN THE WEST BANK ARE DOING, AND ARE OTHER CAUSES OF THIS.

I CAN SAY THAT THERE HAVE BEEN EVOLUTIONS IN THE POLICY OF HAMAS.

FOR EXAMPLE, THEY JOINED A COALITION GOVERNMENT AFTER THE ELECTIONS OF 2006 AND THEY SAID THEY WOULD ALLOW THEM TO NEGOTIATE WITH ISRAEL, AND THEY WERE OFFERING A 100-YEAR TRUCE.

AT LEAST EXPLORING THAT, WHICH THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL REFUSED TO DO, MIGHT HAVE BEEN BETTER THAN ARE GOING DOWN THE PATH THAT WE'VE GONE DOWN SINCE 2006.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS YOUR ROLE RIGHT NOW?

>> I'M AN HISTORIAN.

I BELIEVE THAT CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT.

I BELIEVE THAT HISTORY IS IMPORTANT.

I BELIEVE THAT IF YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED, THE -- THE -- WHAT HAPPENED IN ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN THE DAYS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS ATTACK, WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IN GAZA, AND YOU JUST LOOK AT THAT, YOU WON'T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING AT ALL.

AND IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND SOMETHING ABOUT URBAN WARFARE AND ABOUT WARFARE IN HEAVILY POPULATED PLACES, AND WHAT THAT DOES TO PEOPLE, YOU WILL UNDERSTAND NOTHING.

WHAT IS HAPPENING AND IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN GAZA IS SEWING THE SEEDS OF THINGS THAT WE'RE GOING TO DEAL WITH IN THE 2020s AND '30s.

AND I DON'T SEE THE MILITARY STRATEGISTS, AMERICAN OR ISRAELI, THINKING ABOUT THAT.

I DON'T THINK -- I DON'T THINK HAMAS CARED ABOUT IT, FRANKLY.

THAT WASN'T -- THAT -- I DON'T THINK THAT WAS -- AND THAT, TO ME, IS OBVIOUSLY A TRAGEDY, BUT AS A PALESTINIAN, AS A PERSON WITH FAMILY THERE, BUT I THINK THAT IT IS NOW INCUMBENT ON AMERICAN POLITICIANS TO THINK NOT JUST OF THE NEXT ELECTION, OF COURSE THAT'S WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT, BUT TO THINK ABOUT, WHERE DOES THIS LEAD THIS PART OF THE WORLD ON THE DAY AFTER?

WHATEVER ISRAEL DECIDES TO DO.

AND I DON'T THINK THERE'S BEEN ENOUGH THINKING ABOUT THAT, AND LOOKING AT THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES IN THE MIDDLE EAST, WHAT HAPPENED IN IRAQ, FOR EXAMPLE, SHOULD LEAD US TO THINK A LITTLE MORE CAREFULLY, PERHAPS.

>> YOU MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, ELECTIONS, YOU SAID PEOPLE SHOULD THINK AHEAD TO THE NEXT ELECTIONS.

ONE OF THE ONGOING ISSUES HERE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, HAMAS HASSEN BE SORT OF -- SORT OF CONTROL OF GAZA SINCE, YOU KNOW, 2006, THEY HAVEN'T HAD ELECTIONS IN THAT TIME.

WHAT -- WHAT -- THEY COULD HAVE, THEY DIDN'T.

WHY -- HOW SHOULD PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THAT?

CAN YOU ARGUE THAT THEY HAVE A MANDATE FROM THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE FOR WHAT THEY'RE DOING NOW AND IF THAT'S NOT THE CASE, THEN HOW SHOULD WE THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY ANY LONGER HAVE WHATEVER MANDATE THEY MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN IN THE 2006 ELECTIONS.

AND OF COURSE THERE SHOULD BE ELECTIONS.

THERE'S BEEN A DEMAND IN CIVIL SOCIETY FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

I SUPPORT THAT.

THERE SHOULD BE A DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED AND AN ENTIRELY NEW PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP.

ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT PALESTINIANS HAVE HAD HISTORICALLY IS THEIR LEADERSHIP IS OFTEN UNREPRESENTATIVE AND IT'S OFTEN BEEN TONE-DEAF TO CERTAIN THINGS.

IT'S A TRAGEDY FOR THE PALESTINIANS ABOVE ALL, BUT IT'S A TRAGEDY FOR EVERYBODY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, INCLUDING ISRAELIS.

AND I WON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ISRAELI LEADERSHIP, BUT CERTAINLY I WILL SAY ABOUT PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP THAT THIS HAS BEEN A LONG-STANDING PROBLEM.

THE UNITED STATES HAS DONE NOTHING TO FOSTER ELECTIONS.

LET'S LET THAT BE CLEAR.

WHEN THERE WAS AN EFFORT TO HAVE ELECTIONS RECENTLY, THE UNITED STATES CAME DOWN AGAINST THAT.

AND HAS DONE NOTHING WHEN AN ELECTED GOVERNMENT WAS PRODUCED IN 2006 TO TRY TO SEE IF IT COULD DEAL WITH THAT ELECTED GOVERNMENT.

INSTEAD, THE UNITED STATES WENT IN ANOTHER DIRECTION, WHICH IS A TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE MISTAKE, IN MY VIEW.

>> SO, THERE ARE TWO POINTS THAT I WANT TO SORT OF -- THAT I THINK YOU'RE MAKING.

ONE IS, YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, YOU HAD A LOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT.

I MEAN, YOU SAID IT'S PAST TIME FOR THE UNITED STATES TO CEASE REPEATING EMPTY WORLDS ABOUT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION WHILE PROVIDING MONEY, WEAPONS, FOR SYSTEMIC CALCULATED ISRAELI ACTIONS THAT HAVE MADE THAT SOLUTION INCONCEIVABLE.

AS YOU AND I HAVE SPEAKING, PRESIDENT BIDEN IS, IN FACT, HEADING TO ISRAEL.

YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT, NOW THAT HE IS GOING, WHAT ROLE WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THE U.S.

PLAY NOW?

>> WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS PRESIDENT OR ANY AMERICAN PRESIDENT DO IS TO SAY THE POLITICAL HORIZON FOR THE PALESTINIANS INCLUDES AN END TO OCCUPATION WITHIN X MONTHS.

NOT IN NEVER NEVER LAND, NOT IN FINAL STATUS TALKS THAT WILL NEVER TAKE PLACE.

THAT'S WHAT WE WERE TOLD WHEN I WAS NEGOTIATING IN WASHINGTON, IN '91 TO '93.

THERE WILL BE FINAL STATUS TALKS, WE'LL DEAL WITH THAT LATER.

END OF OCCUPATION.

WHY NOT?

THERE HAS TO BE AN END OF OCCUPATION.

VIOLENCE IS BRED BY OCCUPATION.

ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THAT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING.

SECONDLY, AN END TO SETTLEMENT OCCUPATION AND ROMMING BACK OF SETTLEMENTS.

IF YOU DON'T TELL THE PALESTINIANS WE'RE GOING TO TOLD THIS, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE AN END TO VIOLENCE.

WHEN PEOPLE'S LAND IS TAKEN AWAY AND THEY ARE NOT GIVEN RIGHTS, OF COURSE THEY'RE GOING TO RISE UP SOONER OR LATER.

AND FINALLY, I THINK THE UNITED STATES HAS TO LOOK AT THE PALESTINIANS AS IF THEY ARE PEOPLE EQUAL TO ANY OTHER PEOPLE.

THEY NEED TO HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS ISRAELI ORS OR ANY OT PEOPLE ON EARTH.

IF WE SUPPORT UKRAINE OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE, WE SHOULD BE SUPPORTING DEMOCRACY FOR PALESTINIANS.

IF WE SUPPORT SELF-DETERMINATION AND AN END TO OCCUPATION, WE SHOULD BE SUPPORTING IT FOR PALESTINIANS, AS WELL.

>> HOW DO YOU ADDRESS ISRAEL'S LEGITIMATE SECURITY CONCERNS?

IN THE WAKE OF REPEATED SUICIDE BOMBINGS, THAT'S WHY FOUR OF THE SIX WERE CLOSED, AND LIMITED TO TWO, AND YOU TALKED ABOUT SORT OF THE OPEN AIR PRISON, THAT IS IN PART WHY.

THAT DECISION DIDN'T HAPPEN IN A VACUUM.

>> I MEAN, WE ARE NOW SO FAR DOWN THE ROAD FROM WHERE WE WERE IN 2005 WHEN ISRAEL WITHDREW AND BUILT ITS SYSTEM OF CONTROL OF GAZA.

WE'RE SO FAR DOWN THE ROAD FROM THE 2006 ELECTIONS OR 2007, WHEN HAMAS TOOK OVER GAZA.

AND A LOT OF WATER HAS FLOWN UNDER THE BRIDGE.

BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO STEP BACK AND SAY, WHERE ARE WE GOING?

IS ISRAEL GOING TO PERMANENTLY OCCUPY GAZA?

IS ANYBODY GOING TO DO THAT FOR THEM?

IF NOT, WHAT DO YOU DO?

YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS THE POLITICAL PROBLEMS AT THE ROOT OF THIS.

IF YOU JUST APPLY SECURITY MANDATES AND PERIODIC BOMBINGS OF CIVILIANS WHICH IS BASICALLY ALL ISRAEL HAS OFFERED FOR THE BETTER PART OF A DECADE OR MORE, YOU WILL GET MORE VIOLENCE.

VIOLENCE PRODUCES VIOLENCE.

MASSIVE VIOLENCE PRODUCES MASSIVE VIOLENT REACTIONS.

THIS IS NOT -- THIS IS NOT, HOW SHOULD I SAY IT, ROCKET SCIENCE.

>> BUT THE PALESTINIANS HAVE REPEATEDLY REJECTED THE PEACE PROPOSALS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT FORTH SINCE 1991.

I MEAN, IS IT -- HOW SHOULD WE THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL, THERE'S PROPOSALS AND THERE ARE PEACE PROPOSALS.

IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A PEACE PROSEW SAL, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A PROPOSAL WHICH INVOLVES SOVEREIGNTY, STATEHOOD, AND INDEPENDENCE FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

NO AMERICAN PROPOSAL HAS EVER LED TO THAT OR BEEN MEANT TO LEAD TO THAT.

I WAS SITTING THERE IN MADRID AND I WAS SITTING THERE IN WASHINGTON AND FROM A DISTANCE, I WATCHED THE OSLO PROCESS.

AT NO STAGE DID THAT PROCESS DEAF FINNIVELY SAY WE ARE GOING TO ROLL BACK SETTLEMENTS AND AT THE END, YOU'LL HAVE AN INDEPENDENT PALESTINIAN STATE.

IF YOU DON'T DO THOSE THINGS, THOSE ARE NOT PEACE PROPOSALS.

THERE ARE PROPOSALS TO PUT THE STATUS QUO IN FORMAD HIDE.

THOSE WERE NOT PEACE PROPOSALS.

UNLESS YOU MEAN THE PEACE OF THE DEAD OR THE PEACE OF PEOPLE WHO SUBMIT TO NOT HAVING EQUAL RIGHTS, TO NOT HAVING SOVEREIGNTY.

I DON'T ACCEPT THAT THOSE WERE PEACE PROPOSALS.

THEY SAID IN THE LAST SPEECH BE, RE THERE WILL NOT BE AN INDEPENDENT PALESTINIAN STATE.

AND THAT WAS A TIME BEFORE YOU HAD SUICIDE BOMBING.

THE PLO WAS WILDLY POPULAR AMONG PALESTINIANS.

AND AN AGREEMENT COULD HAVE BEEN SOLD EFFECTIVELY.

THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL JUST DIDN'T TAKE THAT OPTION, OF REALLY PUSHING THE THING TO THE END.

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH JERUSALEM, HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH REFUGEES?

NOBODY CAME UP WITH A PROPER SOLUTION TO THESE CORE PROBLEMS.

SO, THEY WERE NOT PEACE PROPOSAL PROPOSALS.

THERE WAS A PROCESS, NO PEACE.

>> ONE OF THE SIGNIFICANT POINTS IN YOUR PIECE, THOUGH, IS THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE, THE LEVEL OF CARNAGE THAT IS NOW BEING VISITED UPON THE PEOPLE OF GAZA.

MANY OF WHOM, AS YOU POINT OUT, ARE CHILDREN.

AND I NOTE THAT YOU POINT OUT HOW UNEQUAL THE DEATH TOLL IS.

AND I HAVE TO ASK ABOUT THAT, YOU KNOW, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 1,200, PERHAPS 1,400 PEOPLE ON THE ISRAELI SIDE WERE KILLED IN THE HAMAS ATTACKS.

WE KNOW AROUND 200 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TAKEN HOSTAGE.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY OF THEM SURVIVED.

AND YOU ALSO POINT OUT THAT 3,000 PALESTINIANS HAVE DIED, BUT THE NUMBERS.

IT'S THE -- IS THAT REALLY WHERE THIS ARGUMENT LIES?

IS THAT A MORAL ARGUMENT?

>> NO, NO.

NO, IT'S NOT A MORAL ARGUMENT, OBVIOUSLY.

I MEAN, ANY CIVILIAN DEATH, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT A COMBAT DEATH.

ANY CIVILIAN DEATH IS A MORAL TRAGEDY.

OBVIOUSLY.

BUT I THINK THE NUMBERS COME IN, NOT AS A MORAL QUESTION, BUT SIMPLY, THERE ARE WAYS OF MAKING WAR, WHICH ADVANCE TECHNOLOGICAL SOCIETIES EMPLOY, WHICH INVOLVE THE KILLING OF HUGE NUMBERS OF CIVILIANS WHO ARE NEVER SOMEHOW COUNTED IN THE CALCULUS, OH, THAT'S CLOLLATERAL DAMAGE, OH, E DIDN'T MEAN TO DO IT.

IF A P PILOT DOES IT, SOMEONE W COMES IN WITH A GUN AND MURDERS 50 PEOPLE, THIS'S DAT'S DIFFERE.

IF IT VIOLATES OUR ETHICAL AND OUR MORAL STANDARDS ON THE ONE HAND, IT DOES ON THE OTHER.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT A HIGHER DEATH COUNT MEANS A HIGHER MORAL MORALITY MORALITY.

I'M SIMPLY SAYING, ONE KIND OF KILLING OF CIVILIANS IS ONLY AND ONLY THAT KIND IS CALLED TERRORISM, AND ANOTHER KIND OF SYSTEMATIC KILLING OF CIVILIANS WITH MUCH HIGHER DEATH TOLLS IS SIMPLY IGNORED.

>> IS IT HONESTLY BEING IGNORED?

OR IS IT THAT YOU FEEL THAT THE PRESIDENT AND OTHERS REPRESENTING THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE NOT SUFFICIENT LITTLY NOTE COST?

>> THE LANGUAGE.

THIS IS TERRORISM.

THIS IS SELF-DEFENSE AND SECURITY.

I MEAN, THE VERY LANGUAGE INDICATES THIS IS MORALLY ABHORRENT, AND IF YOU DON'T SAY THAT IT'S MORALLY ABHORRENT, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SPEAK.

AND THIS, WELL, THIS IS BAD, BUT UNDERSTANDABLE, AND WE WANT TO LIMIT IT.

THAT -- THAT WILL NOT WASH FOR ME.

IF THIS IS ABHORRENT, THIS IS ALSO ABHORRENT.

THIS FORM OF MAKING WAR, WHICH KILLS, I MEAN, THEY'VE KILLED HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN.

NOW MANY CHILDREN WERE KILLED IN ISRAEL.

THAT'S ABHORRENT.

BUT ISN'T THE KILLING OF CHILDREN IN A CERTAIN KIND OF TECHNOLOGICAL WARFARE ALSO ABHORRENT, AS AN INEVITABLE RESULT?

DOZENS, HUNDREDS ARE KILLED FOR EVERY ONE SUPPOSED TARGET THEY'RE GOING AFTER, AND THIS IS NOT NEW, THIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN THE CASE OF GAZA FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT GIVES YOU HOPE IN THE MOMENT?

THAT THERE WILL BE A BETTER DAY?

>> IT'S A VERY GRIM, DARK, BLEAK MOMENT, AND IT'S REALLY HARD TO FIND ANY HOPE.

I -- I'VE SEEN SHOCKS LIKE THIS CHANGE OPINIONS.

I'M HOPING THAT A SHOCK LIKE THIS WILL CHANGE OPINIONS.

ABOUT GETTING TO THE ROOT OF THINGS AND NOT JUST DEALING WITH SECURITY SITUATIONS.

SECURITY SITUATIONS EMERGE FROM DEEPER ISSUES.

CRIME IS NOT JUST CRIME.

CRIME IS A SOCIAL ISSUE.

TERRORISM IS NOT JUST TERRORISM.

THERE'S ISSUES THERE.

AND IF WE DON'T ADDRESS THEM, WE'RE CONDEMNED TO GO THROUGH THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, LIKE A TERRIBLE NIGHTMARISH HORROR MOVIE.

AND I HOPE THAT WE'LL MOVE AWAY FROM THAT.

I HOPE THAT PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND -- EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS.

EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE EQUAL SECURITY.

ISRAEL'S SECURITY, SECURITY OF ISRAELI, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SECURITY OF PALESTINIANS?

AND I HOPE AND PRAY THAT WE CAN GO IN THAT DIRECTION, EVEN THOUGH I THINK MAYBE WHAT'S JUST HAPPENED, STARTING A WEEK AGO SATURDAY, HAS MADE IT A LITTLE HARDEREN, PER HARDER, PERHAPS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WE WANT TO PLAY YOU SOME MORE OF WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID IN ISRAEL TODAY.

IT WAS A WARNING, IT WAS ADVICE FROM A FRIEND ABOUT RAGE.

AND WHERE IT COULD LEAD, POINTING TO AMERICA'S MISSTEPS AFTER 9/11.

LISTEN.

>> YOU CAN'T LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED HERE TO YOUR MOTHER'S OR FATHER'S, YOUR GRANDPARENTS, SONS, DAUGHTERS, CHILDREN, EVEN BABIES, AND NOT SCREAM OUT FOR JUSTICE.

JUSTICE MUST BE DONE.

BUT I CAUTION THIS, WHILE YOU FEEL THAT RAGE, DON'T BE CONSUMED BY IT.

AFTER 9/11, WE WERE ENRAGED IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHILE WE SOUGHT JUSTICE AND GOT JUSTICE, WE ALSO MADE MISTAKES.

>> IRAQ, LIBYA, SO MANY PLACES.

THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

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GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.