>> She's one of the leaders of the Women's March.

Now the organization is struggling with division and accusations of anti-Semitism.

This week on "Firing Line."

>> We can do it if women rise up!

>> Tamika Mallory became an early leader of those massive and historic protests.

Now she's refusing to denounce the Nation of Islam's leader, known for hate speech against Jews and others.

>> I didn't call him the greatest of all time because of his rhetoric.

I called him the greatest of all time because of what he's done in black communities.

>> As tensions rise and marches are cancelled, there are calls for her to resign.

On the third anniversary of the Women's March, what will Tamika Mallory say now?

>> "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible by... Corporate funding is provided by... ...and by... >> Tamika Mallory, welcome to "Firing Line."

>> Good to be here.

Thank you so much, Margaret.

>> I wanted to have you here because you are now -- You're at this pivotal moment.

You were one of the organizers of what was, debatably, the largest march on Washington in American history, one of the largest movements in our country.

And it was a women's march.

>> Yes, it was.

>> It was in 2017, the day after President Trump was inaugurated.

>> Right.

And you went on to be named by Time 100 as one of the most influential people of 2017.

>> I was.

>> Now, two years past it, what is your most optimistic vision for the Women's March?

>> You know, there is so much work to be done, and I think that you have these high moments.

So, the beginning was a really high moment.

Even though it was painful to bring all these people together, folks who don't know each other, people who are coming from so many different backgrounds -- >> What was painful about it?

>> Just, you don't know who you're working with, right?

With the Women's March, you had people coming together who didn't even know anything about -- >> And it happened so quickly.

>> And it was so quick.

Just eight weeks of really intense planning, and something that big, again, with people who were not necessarily comfortable.

But they're standing here.

We all have a common goal, and we've got to figure out a way to work together.

So that's the other part of it is that, from our perspective, we didn't get an opportunity to learn in private.

It's sort of like a celebrity kid, you know, growing up, and everything you do is just on the main screen.

>> You felt like you were under a microscope.

>> Oh, we certainly have been since day one.

You know, our growing pains have been public.

>> Well, I think what you're getting at delicately is that there has been some controversy surrounding the Women's March in recent days.

We'll get to that.

>> Not just recent days.

Since the very beginning, you know, we've faced controversy.

>> I'll get to that, but I wanted to sort of, looking back, what do you think it was that galvanized so many women across the country from so many different backgrounds and so many different places geographically to move and to mobilize in such a short period of time?

>> You know, I think people were sleeping, in a way.

I think people really did not understand what America was doing and how bad people were suffering in this country.

And I think what happened was that there was this moment when the curtains opened and everyone said, "Oh, my God.

There's racism, there's sexism, there's Islamophobia, there's all these different issues," and then people were like, "Oh, my God.

What have I been doing?

I haven't necessarily been paying attention."

And then you have people, people of color, who were involved in the Women's March, planning, that were like, "I mean, we've been trying to say that this is a problem."

>> So, as you look back now since that first march... >> Mm-hmm.

>> ...what can you say the Women's March has achieved?

>> You know, I think the biggest thing and the thing that I'm most proud of is this idea that we were able to provide entry points for folks to get involved and to find their own voice.

>> How about the policy goals of the Women's March?

What policy achievements do you feel that you've achieved?

>> So, we're in the process of releasing a policy agenda, and what I can tell you is that these goals are around some of the most marginalized and oppressed communities in our society, issues that really are concerning to people who have really been off the radar.

We're trying to focus our attention there.

>> A stated goal is paid family leave.

>> Paid family leave is extremely important to us.

When you think about families and families having a sustainable income in this country, that's sort of like the foundation of everything.

>> Totally.

>> Paid family leave is a common goal that, while I may come from a total different background, I know this is something that we have to work on together.

>> Yeah, a lot of people agree with that, including Ivanka Trump... >> Right.

>> ...has been a huge proponent of paid family leave.

Would the Women's March consider working with her to achieve that?

>> Well, I think the Women's March is open to work with anyone.

And we don't check people's background and say, like, "Who are you, and what's your political affiliation?"

>> But given that she's in the White House and she wants to achieve this policy goal, would you work with her to push legislation together?

>> I think the issue is that we would put forth how we want to see it happen, and then she would decide whether or not she's gonna work with us.

She wouldn't be the one leading the work.

We would be leading the work.

>> You mean come to the table and work mutually?

>> They have to come to the table, working mutually, understanding that the center of the conversation are the people on the ground.

>> As opposed to what?

>> Certain figures.

They're not necessarily there for the real deep work that has to be done.

They really want to do surface work that gets them a picture, a photo op, and that's not what the Women's March is about.

>> One of the things I noticed, 'cause I was there in Washington, and I was so struck by the feeling of goodwill, right?

There was a real shared feeling of mutuality, of respect, and of, like, calm and goodwill and dignity between lots of different people.

>> Yeah.

>> And it feels like some of that feeling of goodwill has eroded.

There have been stories of infighting.

There's evidence that some of the marches have dissolved, some of the marches have splintered off.

There have been some competitive groups organizing other marches, and this next weekend, there will be marches by different women's march groups here in New York.

The DNC has decided not to be part of the Women's March this year.

Emily's List.

Can you reflect on what's going on and what's happened?

>> I don't think it's any different from most movements.

I mean, if you are a student of history, you'll know that every single movement has had the same type of difficulty.

Because, again, people are very caught up in the highlight of the beginning, the moment when we all came together, and we certainly felt an incredible feeling of pride that day.

I know I saw people really just crying and just being -- and smiling, just being happy to be there.

But then the real work begins.

And when the real work starts, that's where you begin to have tension, because everyone is not going to be uniform.

Every movement that I know of, there has been tension among groups and organizers, and there have been people who have had to take the foundation of it and then move into a space that allows them to organize in a way in which they feel is most appropriate for the work.

>> How is that?

Do you have direct experience with that?

So you're saying everybody has had to come to the table, and there's these challenges.

Did you think that reflects your personal experience, as well?

>> Certainly, even before -- So, I -- We were not necessarily, and when I say "we," I'm speaking of the women of color particularly who were in the leadership role within the organization.

We were never sort of caught up in the euphoria of the first moment, because we've been doing this work for 20 years.

So, for us, this was another opportunity to bring forth the issues that we really care about.

It was another opportunity and a really large platform to talk about issues that matter to our communities, so it's very different for some folks who just sort of showed up.

>> Who are new to a movement.

>> Yeah.

So this whole idea of intersectionality is extremely challenging.

>> I'm so glad you just went there, because I wanted to get there.

Can you explain maybe just for the audience, can you define intersectionality?

>> It's having different people come together from various backgrounds but with common goals and then being able to center in that those people who really suffer the most from that issue.

So, for instance, we know gun violence is a major concern for every single community, but we also know that in black and brown communities, gun violence is a daily, daily occurrence.

And so while we may be concerned about school shootings and we all need to focus on school shootings, school shootings may not be the thing that is happening as much as it is what's happening every day in Chicago every day on the street.

>> Can I just extrapolate from what I think I hear you saying is that, the white community has mobilized around gun violence because of school shootings... >> Very much so.

>> ... when the African-American community has been dealing with gun violence for decades.

>> Every day.

>> And that's one of the challenges of intersectionality, because then you bring together a diverse group of people who all care about an issue but have come to it for different reasons.

>> And then, what happens when you talk about the tension is that you start -- In comes Tamika Mallory talking about it from a race perspective, and you have white women who say, "Why do we need to talk about race?

We should all just agree that gun violence is an issue."

And it's some, because there are many white women who get it.

They understand the disparity, and they understand that if we do not focus on gun violence in communities of color, if we don't have a specific focus on that, what will happen is, we'll figure out a way to address school shootings, and then, in our communities, people will continue to die, people will continue to suffer with that particular issue.

>> So, can I take that example and extend it to the Women's March?

>> Yeah.

>> Because intersectionality is something that the Women's March has talked about and has supports, but it is a challenge in every movement, as you say.

And one of the women's marches earlier this year apparently dissolved because organizers say it concerns that the participants would be overwhelmingly white.

This was one in Northern California.

I don't know if you're aware of this.

Does the Women's March have to look a certain way?

>> No, I don't think it has to look a certain way.

No, no, no.

Let me go back and say, yes, it has to be diverse.

Yes, it does.

It does need to be diverse.

I think that every single woman needs to be represented.

But that doesn't mean that I don't feel a particular group of women of any particular background can't get together and say, "We want to march," or, "We want to work on an issue."

>> So, one of the things about this program that I love is that it is a legacy program that aired for 33 years that William F. Buckley Jr. hosted, and he had a leading feminist on 25 years ago, Betty Friedan, a renowned feminist, who many are familiar with, and she spoke about the expansion of the women's movement to include new voices and the challenges that that confronted, and I'd like us to take a look.

This is, I think, exactly what you're talking about, the challenges of balancing different voices and perspectives and backgrounds in a cohesive movement.

>> Absolutely.

It's a challenge, and we're not -- The jury is still out on whether we will ever be able to really accomplish it, because one of the things that we know is that feminism is completely comfortable discarding women of color.

Very comfortable with that.

This is not -- It's almost as if it's expected.

>> Is it because the feminist movement began in this country in sort of the mainstream through white leadership?

>> No, I think it is because this country has yet to address and to really own the oppression of people of color.

And when we bring it up and when we talk about the complexities of our communities, people push back and say, "You know, not now.

Let's wait and talk about that later," or, "You're being divisive," or, "This hurts my feelings," or, "It's not fair.

I didn't have slaves.

I was not the one who --" You know, that's the type of conversation that we get into.

>> Do you think the women's movement right now is insufficiently sensitive to women of color?

>> Yeah, absolutely.

I would say that -- I mean, even what has happened to me.

I mean, I've felt it in this movement.

>> How?

>> So, I'll give you an example.

Before we had the March for Our Lives moment, which was an incredible moment in history, where young people particularly led the charge around gun violence, the Women's March had a march from the NRA to the DOJ, and we specifically focused on Philando Castile, Philando Castile being a young man who was killed in a car by a police officer even though he said, "I have a gun," and the officer heard him and still shot him.

A legal gun owner with a license, you know, and he was killed.

Painful, painful.

The Women's March was out there, leading, in terms of that conversation.

But the backlash that we received within the women's movement, the e-mails from people, "Why are you all marching around gun violence?

This is supposed to be about women's issues.

What does gun violence have to do with this?

We had people highly upset that we would even participate in something like this.

And then, all of a sudden, school shootings happen... >> Mm.

>> ...people are hurting, as they should've been, and then it's like, there's this epiphany.

"Wow!"

You know, and everyone all of a sudden is like, "Oh, gun violence is a thing, and we're gonna get behind this movement."

But when a woman of color came forward and said, "This is an issue, and it's an issue for my community," we didn't get that same support.

>> Philando Castile was a human tragedy.

It is a stain on the country the way that case specifically was handled, and I applaud you for taking it up.

I can also understand the argument you're making, which is that when a woman of color, within the context of the women's march, raises an issue that is of importance to all women, it doesn't get the attention or the focus or the energy... >> Right.

>> ...that that issue gets when the same issue affects white people.

Is that what you're saying?

>> That's exactly right.

And thank you for articulating it for me so well.

>> Well, I wanted to make sure I understood.

>> Yeah.

>> Let me ask you about another charge when you're dealing with a diverse movement and different groups of people, because there have been some claims that the Women's March has been insufficiently inclusive of Jewish women.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> You were quoted in "The New York Times."

Tell me if the quote is right.

"We learned a lot about how, while white Jews, as white people, uphold white supremacy, all Jews are targeted by it."

>> So, first of all, that was an organizational statement.

>> Okay.

So, that's not your statement.

That's by the -- >> It was an organizational statement that was written by a number of people -- Jewish folks, black women, white women, just every-- You know, if I was saying that, out of my mouth, I would've said, "All white-skinned individuals, including Jewish women, anyone who has white skin in America is able to benefit from white privilege, and white privilege is, in fact, a part of white supremacy."

>> When you talk about Jews upholding white supremacy, I mean, there are white supremacists in this country who target Jews.

>> Absolutely.

>> I mean, we just had a Tree of Life Synagogue shooting where a white supremacist went into a synagogue and killed 11 Jews... >> Horrific.

>> ...citing the Jewish community's interest in supporting refugees.

>> Yeah.

>> So when you accuse Jews of upholding white supremacy, it feels and seems inappropriate in the context of this mass white-supremacist slaughter in a synagogue.

>> Well, if you want to put it in the context of that particular issue or that incident, which is a horrific incident in American history, then that's fine.

But if you want to talk about the overall context of how we exist in America, then I think it makes perfect sense.

>> Let's do both.

>> I mean, it doesn't change.

The bottom line is that, people who have white skin, including white Jews, benefit from white privilege.

I mean, even Jewish people say that.

>> I understand the argument that white people are benefiting from a system of privilege that is structural, that has existed for centuries.

I also understand white supremacy to be an evil ideology that is filled with hate and insists on not allowing anyone else into the franchise.

So help me understand the conflation of white privilege and white supremacy.

>> So, it does not mean to say that you are a white supremacist and that you are akin to the KKK, but if you have white privilege in this country, and particularly if you are not -- if you don't address it, own it, focus on it, and figure out how to be in relationship to other people who know how dangerous it is, then you, again, are participating in upholding the system and unwilling to help us tear it down.

>> There were, and have been, accusations about this anti-Semitism that have been reported -- and reported that you have said to co-leaders of the women's movement in the beginning who were Jewish, "Your people have all the wealth."

Was there any credence to any of those accusations?

>> So, the accusations against me are 100% false.

It didn't happen.

If I did not believe that anti-Semitism was a real issue, if I did not believe that Jewish women should be a part of it, I wouldn't say it.

I stand very, very clear in my principles and who I am.

So the reason why you have seen me say things about the Jewish community, the reason why you hear me talking about anti-Semitism, is because I truly believe that those issues are issues that we need to address.

>> Do you think that you have evolved your thinking... >> Yes.

>> ...especially with respect to the discrimination against Jewish people?

>> Absolutely.

Certainly.

When we first heard in Charlottesville, "The Jews will not replace us," I did not -- I didn't pick up on it.

I thought they were saying, "You will not replace us."

But when someone said to me, "Hey, they're saying, 'The Jews will not replace us,'" I was horrified.

And I think, in that moment, what I realized is that we need to make sure that we understand all of the communities that are hurt and feeling, in this moment, this incredible sense of despair.

And I think that's why there are definite legitimate concerns about Jewish women feeling included, so I don't want to take away from that.

But there's also a sense of divisiveness.

>> I want to change the subject a little bit.

I noticed, as I was doing my research on you, I saw a Facebook Live about a trip that you took to Israel.

>> Mm-hmm.

Sure did.

>> And it was clearly a really high-impact visit for you.

I want to share a clip from that Facebook Live.

>> In terms of us screaming, "Free Palestine," yelling, "Free Palestine," we're doing that work, but we also are responsible for really pushing our elected officials to see that any support of a country that is abusing the native people from that land is not support that we as a country that is supposed to be about freedom and justice for all, that we should... >> The one question I have is, the term "native people," when you use it, how do you mean that?

>> The Palestinians are native to the land, you know?

They were there for a very long time, and so they're native to the land.

>> Do you feel that the Jewish people are native, as well?

>> I mean, I understand the history, that -- that there are people who have a number of sort of ideologies around why the Jewish people feel this should be their land.

I'm not Jewish, so for me to speak to that is not fair.

>> But there are people who are concerned that the language, "native land," is used to delegitimize Jews from having a state.

>> So, I've been very -- Again, I'm not Jewish, and so I won't speak to that.

What I will speak to is that I believe that the Palestinians also need freedom in their land.

>> But are Jews native people, also?

>> That is not my call to make.

>> If you're willing to say that the Palestinians are native but not the Jews are native, I mean, you're not Palestinian, either.

>> Because I'm speaking of the people who we know are being brutally oppressed in this moment.

That's just the reality.

>> Are you unwilling to say that the Jews are a native people?

>> I'm gonna repeat -- I'm not gonna change my answer.

>> Okay.

Is it your view that Israel has a right to exist as a nation?

>> I have said many times that I feel everyone has a right to exist.

I feel everyone has a right to exist.

I just don't feel that anyone has a right to exist at the disposal of another group.

That's it.

>> But hold on.

There's only one country that's targeted for annihilation and constantly at the brunt of arguments that it doesn't have a right to exist, which is -- which is why -- >> But I didn't say that.

I said I believe all people have the right to exist -- all people -- >> And in your view, does that include Israelis in Israel?

>> I believe that all people have the right to exist and that Palestinians are also suffering with a great crisis and that there are other Jewish scholars who will sit here and say the same.

I'm done talking about this, so you can move on.

>> I get it -- you don't want to say it.

I just don't think it requires scholarly knowledge to be able to say that Israel has a right to exist.

>> Again, I believe everyone has the right to exist.

>> I do want to move on, because I do want to talk about the Women's March.

I want to wrap that up.

There have been some calls for your removal.

As I understand it, the calls for you to resign have to do with what some people view as a refusal to denounce or disassociate yourself from remarks from the leader of the Nation of Islam.

A lot of people are upset because you posted on Instagram, calling Louis Farrakhan "the greatest of all time."

Do you want to respond to that?

>> I'm not talking about Minister Farrakhan anymore.

Minister Farrakhan is not a part of the Women's March, so there's no reason for us to discuss that.

>> You have said that you didn't call the leader of the Nation of Islam "the greatest of all time" because of his rhetoric.

You called him "the greatest of all time" because of what he has done in black communities.

And it seems to me that the criticism is that you haven't been willing to disassociate yourself from his rhetoric, which to the Southern Poverty Law Center and to most people is hate speech.

>> I stand against anti-Semitism.

I stand against all forms of bigotry, all forms of oppression.

I will continue to do that work, and I will continue to be in relationship with the Jewish community, with the LGBTQIA community, and any other community that I feel is being oppressed in this country, and that's my final answer on that.

>> You are not one to melt under pressure.

Sometimes you have to believe in something, even if it means sacrificing everything.

Have you had a moment where you've thought the movement might be less divided if you were to resign?

>> Well, I think it would be even more divided, because if a woman who has been a part of this movement, a black woman, who has helped to do all the beautiful things that everyone has enjoyed, the two years of body of work that we have, of bringing people together, these great moments that everyone has experienced, I put my blood, sweat, and tears into those moments.

And so if I'm disposed, then everyone can be disposed.

If I am not someone who this movement represents, if intersectionality does not include me, then who does it include?

>> Tamika, thank you for being here.

Thank you for coming to share your views and coming to really enlighten us and have the real exchange and the back-and-forth.

>> Thank you.

>> I really, really appreciate it.

>> I appreciate you.

>> Thanks.

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