THE WALLACE GENETIC FOUNDATION, THE COLCOM FOUNDATION, AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

>> YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO SEE ADVERTISING FROM A FAST FOOD COMPANY.

THEY WANT TO TAKE THE MONEY WHERE THEY CAN GET IT, BUT THE COST IF THAT IS CONSUMERISM.

THEIR PRODUCTS BEING BOMBARDED WITH THESE MESSAGES FROM THESE UNHEALTHY COMPANIES.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I'M BONNIE ERB.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY".

THIS WEEK: VEGANISM IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

WE SPEAK WITH AWARD-WINNING NUTRITIONISTS AND BEST-SELLING AUTHOR TRACY McWHORTER.

HER NEWEST BOOK IS CALLED AGES VEGAN, THE SECRET TO LIVING A LAW -- LONG AND HEALTHY PLANT-BASED LIFE.

WRITTEN WITH HER MOTHER, MARY.

WILL COME.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> THANK YOU, BONNIE.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> WHOSE IDEA WAS THIS BOOK, YOURS OR YOUR MOTHER'S?

>> MY IDEA.

MY MOTHER WAS RELUCTANT.SHE IS LIKE, WHO WANTS TO HEAR MY STORY?

BUT SHE'S A BLACK WOMAN WHO'S FROM THE SOUTH AND WENT THEY CAN IN HER 60s AND IS NOW 83 AND DOING GREAT, STILL VEGAN.

I WANTED TO SHARE HER STORY.

>> AND HOW DID YOU BECOME VEGAN?

>> I BECAME VEGAN 32 YEARS AGO AS A SOPHOMORE AT AMHERST COLLEGE.

BLACK STUDENT UNION BROUGHT O TALK ABOUT THE STATE OF BLACK AMERICA.

INSTEAD HE TALKED ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF BLACK AMERICA AND HOW UNHELPFULLY MOST FOLKS EAT.

HE TRACED THE PATH OF A HAMBURGER TO A COW ON A FACTORY FARM, THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE PROCESS TO A FAST FOOD RESTAURANT TO A CLOGGED ARTERY TO A HEART ATTACK.

THAT'S WHAT STARTED ME ON MY JOURNEY.

>> HE WAS AN INCREDIBLE LEADER IN MANY RESPECTS.

BUT ALSO THAT RESPECT.

DO YOU THINK, GIVEN THAT HEART DISEASE IS THE BIGGEST KILLER IN THIS COUNTRY, BIGGER THAN ALL CANCERS COMBINED, DO YOU THINK AMERICANS HAVE GOTTEN THE MESSAGE THAT CONNECTS ANIMAL FAT WITH HEART DISEASE?

>> IT'S IMPROVING.

I THINK MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE GETTING THE MESSAGE.

CLEARLY NOT ENOUGH.

WE ARE DEALING WITH MARKETING, FOOD ADVERTISING, DEALING WITH THE USDA AND FOOD GUIDELINES THAT ARE BIASED TOWARDS INDUSTRY, TOWARDS THE FOOD INDUSTRY.

NOT NECESSARILY PROMOTING HEALTH BUT PROMOTING THE FOOD INDUSTRY.

RIGHT?

THAT'S THE JOB.

SO WE HAVE A CONTRADICTION THERE.

THE MESSAGE IS GETTING OUT MORE AND MORE.

I MEAN, I SEE THE DIFFERENCE IN THE LAST 32 YEARS FROM WHEN I STARTED.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS MORE TO BE DONE.

>> Bonnie: TELL ME ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES IF THEY EXIST BETWEEN WHITE PEOPLE AND COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, AND VEGETARIAN OR VEGANISM?

THE LAST POLE WE HAVE IS FROM ÷}SPEAKER2á AS OF 2016, 3% OR NEARLY 1.5 MILLION AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE VEGAN AND VEGETARIAN.

AND ANOTHER 32% SAY THAT WHEN THEY EAT OUT, THEY REGULARLY OR SOMETIMES ORDER MEATLESS MEALS.

SO THAT'S AN ADDITIONAL 15 MILLION PEOPLE.

AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE PIONEERS IN VEGANISM.

I MEAN, STARTING FROM THE LATE 1800S, TO AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO WERE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST, WERE EATING VEGETARIAN FOOD ON UP THROUGH THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, BECAUSE OF THE PRACTICE OF NON-VIOLENCE, MANY FOLKS ACTUALLY EXPANDED THAT NON VIOLENCE TOWARDS ANIMALS.

AND THAT'S HOW DICK GREGORY BECAME A VEGETARIAN, STARTED IN 1965, THEN VEGAN IN 1967.

SO WHEN HE CAME TO MY CAMPUS, 20 YEARS LATER, HE WAS HE HAD BEEN VEGAN FOR 20 YEARS.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THIS, WHAT I CALL A STREAM OF AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO HAVE BEEN INTO VEGANISM AND HEALTHY EATING NEXT TO THIS BIG RIVER OR OCEAN OF FOLKS, YOU KNOW, WHO WERE NOT, BUT YOU KNOW, THAT NUMBER IS IMPROVING.

SO IN TERMS OF THE NEED FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS TO EAT MORE PLANT BASED FOODS, WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, MORE ALL THE WAY GOING VEGAN, IT'S TO ME ESSENTIAL, BECAUSE WE HAVE THE WORST HEALTH OUTCOMES IN THE COUNTRY.

THERE ARE ABOUT 300,000 AFRICAN AMERICAN DEATHS FROM PRIMARILY CHRONIC DISEASES, PREVENTABLE DIET RELATED CHRONIC DISEASES EVERY YEAR.

THAT'S MORE THAN 800 PEOPLE A DAY.

AND SO THIS IS A REAL CRISIS IN OUR COMMUNITY.

AND THERE ARE LOTS OF REASONS THAT PEOPLE ARE EATING UNHEALTHY FOODS, BUT WE ALSO HAVE THE POWER TO TAKE BACK CONTROL OF OUR HEALTH.

>> Bonnie: WE HAVE DONE OVER THE LAST 28 YEARS LOTS OF STORIES ABOUT AFRICAN-AMERICAN HEALTH AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN'S HEALTH WHICH IS WORSE THAN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN'S HEALTH.

I HAVE OFTEN THOUGHT THAT IT MUST BE ASSOCIATED OF DYING OF HEART ATTACKS AT YOUNG AGES, MUST BE ASSOCIATED WITH EATING A LOT OF ANIMAL FAT AND HARDENING OF THE ARTERIES, ETC.

IS THAT ACCURATE?

>> Tracye: DEFINITELY.

ÃHEART ACCURATE?

DISEASE IS THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DEATH AMONG AFRICAN-AMERICANS AS WELL.

THERE ARE CERTAIN CANCERS, BREAST CANCER, OVARIAN CANCER, UTERINE CANCER.

THERE IS STROKE, UNHEALTHY WEIGHT, OBESITY, DIABETES, AND THERE'S ALSO OXIDATIVE STRESS, RIGHT?

SO OXIDATIVE STRESS CAN BE CAUSED BY DIET.

IT'S KIND OF RESTING OF THE CELLS PREMATURELY THAT CAN BE CAUSED BY DIET, BUT THAT CAN ALSO BE CAUSED BY RACISM AND SEXISM, RIGHT?

>> Bonnie: EXTERNAL FACTORS.

>> Tracye: STRESS, ABSOLUTELY.

BECAUSE OF THIS, TO ME, IT'S EVEN MORE IMPERATIVE FOR US TO TAKE BACK CONTROL OF OUR HEALTH AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

WHILE WE ARE ADDRESSING THE SOCIETAL INJUSTICE, WHILE BEING ACTIVISTS OUT HERE, WE NEED TO REALLY EMBRACE MORE SELF-CARE AND, YOU KNOW, THE BIGGEST THING THAT WE CAN DO IS TO EAT MORE HEALTHILY, MORE PLANT-BASED FOODS.

>> Bonnie: BUT A LOT OF WHAT YOU'VE SAID IS ALSO TRUE OF THE WHITE COMMUNITY, >> Tracye: YES.

>> Bonnie: NOT SO MUCH THE ASIAN COMMUNITY, THEY TEND TO EAT MORE BETTER, I THINK, THAN JUST ABOUT ANY OTHER ETHNIC GROUP IN THIS COUNTRY, INCLUDING WHITES.

>> Tracye: WELL, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING ABOUT THAT 2, BONNIE, IS THAT BEFORE FAST FOOD COMPANIES BEGAN TO TARGET AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITIES, URBAN AREAS, AFRICAN AMERICANS WERE ACTUALLY MEETING THE USDA TO BONNIE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR FIBER FOR HEALTHY FATS FOR WHOLE GRAINS FOR FRUITS AND VEGETABLES MORE THAN WHITE AMERICANS WERE.

SO THIS IS IN THE 1960S.

AND THEN THE FAST FOOD COMPANIES DECIDED TO TARGET AND ACTUALLY PREY ON LOW INCOME COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, PARTICULARLY AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITIES STARTING IN THE EARLY 1970S.

AND THAT COMPLETELY CHANGED THE WAY THAT LOW INCOME BLACK FOLKS IN CITIES WERE EATING.

>> Bonnie: IT'S FUNNY, BECAUSE I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU WHETHER FAST FOOD WAS A FACTOR IN AFRICAN AMERICANS EATING, YOU KNOW, HAVING THESE PROBLEMS.

AND HAVE YOU DONE, HAVE YOU TRIED TO DO ANY WORK WITH THESE COMPANIES TO -- I MEAN, YOU ALWAYS SEE McDONALD'S.

YEAH.

>> Tracye: >> Bonnie: SPONSORING McDONALD'S, RONALD McDONALD HOUSES IN LOW INCOME AREAS, YOU SEE THEM TARGETING THEM, AND COKE AND PEPSI AND TARGETING BLACK COMMUNITIES WITH ADS, WITH ADS DURING SPORTING EVENTS THAT ATTRACT AFRICAN AMERICANS MORE SO.

WHAT CAN BE, YOU KNOW, HAVE YOU HAD DISCUSSIONS WITH THEM ABOUT KNOCKING THIS OFF >> Tracye: IT'S A HARD QUESTION FOR A LOT OF ORGANIZATIONS AND COMPANIES, SCHOOL SYSTEMS, BECAUSE THEY'RE UNDERFUNDED, RIGHT?

AND SO AND THEY'RE NOT GETTING THE SAME FUNDING THAT PRIMARILY WHITE ORGANIZATIONS OR INSTITUTIONS MIGHT GET, AND IN FRICAN AMERICAN MEDIA, YOU TERMS OF AKNOW, OVER THE DECADES, THAT HAS BEEN THE SAME, YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO SEE.

>> Bonnie: NEW YORK FOR EXAMPLE BAN SUPER SIZES OF SUGARED SODAS FOR EXAMPLE.

I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE GUN INDUSTRY AS WELL.

BUT IF CORPORATIONS CREATE A HEALTH HAZARD, THEN MAKE THEM PAY TO CLEAN IT UP, AND THAT S ANY OF THAT GOING ON ON A LOCAL BASIS ANYWHERE?

>> Tracye: WHAT'S POSITIVE IS YOU ACTUALLY HAVE POLICYMAKERS, YOU HAVE PEOPLE IN POLITICAL POWER WHO THEMSELVES ARE VEGAN OR VEGAN FAMILY WHO ARE INITIATING THESE KINDS OF HESE KINDS OF THINGS.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN NEW YORK, THEY HAVE JUST INSTITUTED MEATLESS MONDAYS , RIGHT?

SO STARTING ACTUALLY THIS MONTH, ALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS ACROSS THE CITY WILL HAVE MEATLESS MONDAYS.

YOU HAVE THE COALITION OF HEALTHY SCHOOL FOOD FOR WHICH I'M AN ADVISORY BOARD MEMBER.

THEY HAVE ACTUALLY HELPED SOME CHARTER SCHOOLS AND COMMUNITIES IN HARLEM BEING ONE OF THEM WHO ACTUALLY HAVE REGULAR VEGETARIAN MEALS.

SO YOU HAVE THESE, YOU KNOW, THESE POLITICIANS, YOU HAVE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

BUT IT'S NOT ON A KIND OF LEGISLATIVE LEVEL YET.

>> Bonnie: ACCORDING TO A 2016 POLL BY THE PEW ORGANIZATION, SOME 9 PERCECECEAMERICANS WILL SAY THAT THEY ARE VEGETARIAN, ALMOST VEGETARIAN, OR VEGAN OR ALMOST VEGAN COMBINED.

THAT STILL SEEMS LOW TO ME WHEN I SEE THE HUGE INCREASE OF VEGETARIAN AND VEGAN RESTAURANTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, SOME EVEN BECOMING CHAINS LIKE A NOT SWEET GREEN WHICH IS VEGGIE GRILL IS AN EXAMPLE.

>> Bonnie: YEAH.

EXACTLY.

SO HE SAID 32 PERCENT OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

IF YOU INCLUDE AN OCCASIONAL VEGETARIAN MEAL OR VEGAN ÷¦ F YOU INCLUDE AN OCCASIONAL >> Tracye: RIGHT.

THESE RESTAURANTS YOU ARE SEEING MORE OF, THEY ARE ACTUALLY CATERING TO VEGANS AND VEGETARIANS, BUT PRIMARILY TO OMNIVORES, RIGHT?

THAT'S WHY YOU ARE SEEING MORE.

SO JUST LIKE ONE-THIRD OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE ORDERING MEATLESS MEALS, YOU KNOW, WHEN REGULARLY OR SOMETIMES, SO IS THE GENERAL POPULATION.

>> Bonnie: HOW IMPORTANT ARE THINGS LIKE YOUR BUCK, WHICH I WANT TO TALK ABOUT IN A COUPLE MINUTES, AND YOUR PAMPHLET AND DOCUMENTARIES ABOUT THE FOOD INDUSTRY?

I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS STILL EATING PRETTY MUCH ALDAIRI PRODUCTS, SOMEBODY TOLD ME ÃTHERE WAS A MUCH ALDAIRI DOCUMENTARY OUT ABOUT THE DAIRY DON'T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS, BUT IT SHOWED HOW THE DAIRY INDUSTRY WOULD MIX GERMS, GERMS THAT CAME OUT OF THE COWS THAT DID NOT GET OUT THROUGH PASTEURIZATION OR FATS THAT CONTAIN GERMS BACK IN WITH THE HEN THEY PROCESSED IT AND ALL THE AWFUL THINGS.

I REALIZE, HEY, I GOT TO QUIT THE STUFF TOO.

BUT HOW IMPORTANT ARE THOSE THINGS IN CONVERTING PEOPLE?

>> Tracye: OH, CRUCIAL.

ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL.

BECAUSE YOU UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW THERE'S A CONCERTED EFFORT BY THE JUNK FOOD INDUSTRY, THE FAST FOOD INDUSTRY, THE PROCESSED FOOD INDUSTRY THROUGH FOOD ADVERTISING, TO KEEP CUSTOMERS, TO TARGET YOUNG PEOPLE TO GET THEM HOOKED VERY YOUNG.

AND SO WE NEED BOOKS, AND WE NEED GUIDES AND WE NEED MOVIES, WE NEED DOCUMENTARIES TO COUNTER THIS MESSAGE BECAUSE IT'S NOT COMING FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ENOUGH.

IT'S NOT COMING FROM, YOU KNOW, EVEN HEALTHIER FOOD INDUSTRIES, YOU RARELY SEE COMMERCIALS THAT PROMOTE FRUITS AND VEGETABLES AND WHOLE GRAINS, RIGHT?

SO THESE OTHER TYPES OF MEDIA ARE CRUCIAL TO HELPING PEOPLE YOU KNOW, UNDERSTAND ABOUT VEGANISM AND VEGETARIANISM.

BON>> Bonnie: LET'S SWITCH TO WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN.

>> Tracye: SURE.

SO THIS IS THE BOOK, MY LATEST BOOK, AGELESS VEGAN THAT I WROTE WITH MY MOM.

AND THIS ACTUALLY WAS WRITTEN IN CELEBRATION OF OUR 30 YEARS OF BEING VEGAN.

AND THIS GUIDE IS THE AFRICAN AMERICAN VEGAN STARTER GUIDE THAT I CREATED WITH FARM SANCTUARY.

AND THIS IS A COMPLETELY FREE GUIDE, I WROTE WITH 11 OTHER BLACK VEGAN EXPERTS, AND IT'S ALL ABOUT HOW AND WHY TO GO VEGAN.

BONYOU SAID EARLIER THERE ARE TONS OF VEGETARIAN AND VEGAN COOKBOOKS COMING OUT ALL THE TIME.

TO TALK ABOUT THAT, PLEASE?

>> Tracye: IS JUST KIND OF START WITH THE BASICS.

INGREDIENTS.

FRESH FRUITS AND VEGETABLES, WHOLE GRAINS, BEANS, AND NUTS AS INGREDIENTS.

RIGHT?

AND SO HOW DO YOU USE THOSE, AND SEASONINGS AND SAUCES.

IF I'M DOING THE COOKING CLASS, OR IF I'M AT A FESTIVAL IS START WITH VEGAN SOUL FOOD.

NOW MOST FOLKS EAT SOUL FOOD AT FAMILY REUNIONS OR SPECIAL OCCASIONS.

IT'S NOT EVERYDAY FOOD, RIGHT?

BUT THAT'S THE FOOD THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE AT A FESTIVAL OR CELEBRATION, RIGHT?

AND SO I SHOW FOLKS HOW TO MAKE IT USING PLANT BASED INGREDIENTS.

SO HOW DO YOU MAKE MAC AND CHEESEOW DO YOU MAKE COLLARD GREENS WITHOUT MEAT, TASTES DELICIOUS, RIGHT?

HOW DO YOU DO FOLK FRIED CHICKEN?

SO THAT'S WHAT I START WITH.

AND IT'S IN.

AND I THINK THAT ONCE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THEY CAN MAKE EASILY, MAKE THESE FOODS THAT THEY LOVE THAT THEY LIKE TO CELEBRATE WITH AT HOME.

YOU KNOW, THEY START THERE.

BONNIE ie: WHAT DO YOU TELL PEOPLE ABOUT MAKING ABOUT USING PROCESSED VEGAN PRODUCTS?

YEAH, THAT REALLY AREN'T AS HEALTHY AS IF YOU START FROM SCRATCH YOURSELF.

RIGHT?

ECAUSE YEAH, SUGAR AND SALT.

>> Tracye: AND FAT.

YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

SO I CALL IT BRIDGE FOODS, THESE FOODS OUT HERE THAT MIMIC BURGERS AND HOT DOGS AND CHEESE, AND CHICKEN, THOSE ARE HIGHLY PROCESSED, OR MORE LIKELY TO HAVE TO BE VERY HIGH IN FAT, SALT AND SUGAR.

SO THEY ARE HEALTHIER BUT THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY HEALTHY.

BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL PROCESSED AND SO AND THEY'RE STILL ADDICTIVE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE NEED THAT BRIDGE, THEY NEED TO HAVE FOODS THAT TASTE AND FEEL IN THEIR MOUTH LIKE MEAT AND DAIRY, RIGHT?

SO AND I DID THAT 30 YEARS AGO, RIGHT?

I NEEDED THAT KIND OF FOOD TO GET ME OVER THE HUMP.

BUT IT'S STILL IT'S A BRIDGE, BUT IT'S NOT A PLACE TO STAY.

BONNI>> Bonnie: THE SAME YOU'RE SAYING AS A BRIDGE, CALLING A BRIDGE FOOD IS MEAT THAT DOESN'T MAY HAVE ORIGINALLY COME FROM ANIMALS.

AND IN THE CASE OF FOR EXAMPLE, LAB MADE MEAT DOESN'T INVOLVE CRUELTY IN ITS PRODUCTION.

>> Tracye: RIGHT, BRIDGE FOODS AND THESE LAB BASED MEATS ARE ABSOLUTELY BETTER WHEN IT COMES TO ANIMALS, RIGHT?

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH FOR THESE LAB GROWN MEATS, YOU'RE STILL DEALING WITH ANIMAL PROTEIN, CHOLESTEROL AND SATURATED FAT.

>> Bonnie: NOW, WHAT REASON DO MOST PEOPLE CITE FOR BECOMING VEGETARIAN AND VEGAN IF THEY GREW UP ANIMAL BASED DIET?

MO>> Tracye: MOST PEOPLE DO IT FOR HEALTH REASONS.

THAT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE OVER THE DECADES, BUT ACTUALLY NAIL BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND BECAUSE OF PEOPLE'S AWARENESS ABOUT ANIMALS, I ACTUALLY CAN'T SAY THAT THAT'S REALLY TRUE.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE WHAT THE LATEST STATISTICS ARE MYSELF.

IF YOU'RE REALLY INFORMED ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON, YOU KNOW, THAT THE BURNING OF THE AMAZON, IT'S HAPPENING BECAUSE THEY'RE CLEARING LAND FOR CATTLE GRAZING, RIGHT FOR RAISING MEAT.

>> Bonnie: WELL, LUMBER TOO.

YEAH, AND LUMBER AND ALSO FOR TO PLANT SOY, RIGHT?

THAT'S FED TO ANIMALS.

>> Tracye: >> Bonnie: BUT I THINK IT'S ÃYOU'RE RIGHT, IN THAT IT'S BETTER KNOWN AS BEING DONE TO GET PRECIOUS WOODS AND RARE WOODS.

BUT IT'S LESS KNOWN AND MORE PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT.

>> Tracye: MORE PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW.

>> Bonnie: A LOT OF IT'S BEING DONE TO RAISE CATTLES.

>> Tracye: EXACTLY.

AND ENVIRONMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS ARE NOW WILLING TO SAY IT, I THINK DECADES EARLIER, THEY WERE LESS LIKELY TO MAKE THE CONNECTION BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID OF LOSING FUNDING.

BUT NOW I THINK ÃTHEY'RE HEY WERE AFRAID OF MORE WILLING, FROM WHAT I SEE THEY'RE MORE WILLING TO MAKE THAT CONNECTION.

AND SO WE'RE MORE LIKELY GOING TO HEAR IT IN THE MEDIA, I THINK FOR HEALTH REASONS FOR ANIMAL RIGHTS REASONS AND FOR CLIMATE REASONS THAT PEOPLE DO IT FOR SPIRITUAL REASONS AS WELL.

>> Bonnie: RIGHT.

I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, HOW DOES RELIGION PLAY INTO ALL THIS?

BECAUSE I WAS NOTICING, I WAS DOING RESEARCH IN ADVANCE OF OUR INTERVIEW IN THE MOST VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS INDIA, WHERE 75% AND -- OF COURSE HINDUISM AND JAINISM, TWO PROMINENT RELIGIONS THERE DO NOT ALLOW THEIR FOLLOWERS TO EAT MEAT.

>> Tracye: RIGHT, AND HERE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND ALSO WORLDWIDE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST, RIGHT, PROMOTE A VEGETARIAN DIET.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE LARGEST STUDY DONE HERE ON AFRICAN AMERICANS WAS ON AFRICAN AMERICAN SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST AND SOMETHING I LEARNED PREPARING FOR THIS INTERVIEW WAS THAT OAKWOOD COLLEGE IN ALABAMA, WHICH IS A BLACK SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST INSTITUTION, HAS ALWAYS HAD VEGETARIAN FOOD SINCE ITS FOUNDING, FOUNDING IN THE LATE 1800S.

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

SO, YOU KNOW, DEFINITELY RELIGIOUS AND SPIRITUAL REASONS.

AND HERE IN WASHINGTON, D.C.

IN THE 80s, WHEN I WENT VEGAN, I DISCOVERED MYSELF THERE WAS A LARGE AND THRIVING BLACK VEGAN COMMUNITY THAT HAD STARTED THE VERY FIRST 100% VEGAN ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE NATION'S CAPITAL.

AND THEY WERE AFRICAN HEBREW ISRAELITES, HE NATION'S CAPITAL.

AND THEY >> Bonnie: FROM ETHIOPIA?

>> Tracye: NO, THEY WERE ACTUALLY AFRICAN -- >> Bonnie: BECAUSE THE BLACK JEWS IN AFRICA ARE FROM ETHIOPIA.

>> Tracye: RIGHT, YOURSELVES, THEY THEMSELVES WERE FROM THIS AREA, AND THEY ADOPTED THIS PRACTICE THIS RELIGIOUS PRACTICE.

AND THERE WAS ALSO ASERASET.

SO -- AND THEN THE NATION OF ISLAM, YOU KNOW, PROMOTED VEGETARIANISM AS WELL.

AND THEN YOU JUST HAD FOLKS WHO WERE DOING IT FOR ANIMAL RIGHTS AND SOCIAL JUSTICE REASONS, RIGHT, SAME AS DICK GREGORY.

SO THERE ARE.

>> Bonnie: NOW, ONE QUESTION I WANT TO ASK, IS THE EXPENSE AND WHO I MEAN, THERE'S OBVIOUSLY A REASON WHY McDONALD'S IS TARGETING POOR NEIGHBORHOODS, ÃIS A MORE EXPENSIVE WAY TO GO.

BUT MEAT IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN VEGETABLES.

SO HOW DOES ALL THAT WORK?

>> Tracye: SO IT'S A MYTH THAT IT HAS TO BE THAT IT'S BY DEFAULT, MORE EXPENSIVE, IT OBVIOUSLY CAN BE, RIGHT?

BUT IF YOU'RE COOKING YOUR FOODS FROM SCRATCH, A ND IF YOU ARE USING WHOLE FOOD INGREDIENTS, IF YOU'RE GETTING RICE AND OTHER GRAINS FROM THE BULK BED, RIGHT?

IF YOU'RE MAKING YOUR STIR FRY, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE A FAMILY THAT EATS CHICKEN STIR FRY A COUPLE TIMES A WEEK, YOU CAN SUBSTITUTE CHICKPEAS OR TOFU, OR BLACK BEANS, OR CASHEWS OR WALNUTS, RIGHT?

MUCH CHEAPER THAN THROWING SOME MEAT IN THERE.

SO IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE IF YOU KNOW HOW TO COOK FROM SCRATCH.

AND I THINK THAT'S A TIME ISSUE, RIGHT?

LESS THAN MORE SO THAN AN EXPENSE ISSUE.

ITS CONVENIENCE, RIGHT?

THE PEOPLE ARE, THAT PEOPLE ARE STOPPING AT FAST FOOD PLACES AFTER THE KIDS GET OUT OF SCHOOL OR AFTER, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE PICKING THEM UP FROM SOCCER PRACTICE OR WHATEVER.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T HAVE TIME TO COOK.

THAT'S AN ISSUE TO ADDRESS, RIGHT.

BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE MORE EXPENSIVE.

AND IN FACT, THAT THRIVING BLACK VEGAN COMMUNITY THAT I MENTIONED IN THE 80s THAT HAD THESE 100% VEGAN ESTABLISHMENTS, THEY WERE IN LOW INCOME BLACK COMMUNITIES.

>> Bonnie: BONNIE ERBE 24:06 ONE QUESTION I GET FROM EVERYBODY ABOUT BEING VEGETARIAN AND THEM THINKING ABOUT IT IS, WELL, WHERE AM I GOING TO GET MY PROTEIN?

>> Tracye: OH, NO.

, NOT THE PROTEIN QUESTION.

SO VEGANS GET 70% MORE PROTEIN THAN THE RECOMMENDED DAILY ALLOWANCE, JUST LIKE OMNIVORES DO.

SO PROTEIN IS A NON-ISSUE.

>> Bonnie: I READ SOMEWHERE THAT YOU NEED, EVERY PERSON ONLY NEEDS TWO OUNCES OF PROTEIN EVERY DAY, THAT'S NOT A LOT.

YOU DON'T NEED A 10 OUNCE STEAK.

YOU DON'T NEED, YOU KNOW, A 15 OUNCE FISH, YOU NEED TWO OUNCES, SO AND WHAT I TELL PEOPLE IS, YOU GOT NUTS, YOU GOT SOY... TRACYE >> Tracye: YOU GET 10% OF YOUR PROTEIN NEEDS FROM ALL KINDS OF WHOLE GRAINS.

EVEN FRUIT AND VEGETABLES HAVE PROTEIN IN SMALL AMOUNTS.

IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT NOT TO GET ENOUGH PROTEIN.

IF YOU'RE EATING A HEALTHY VEGAN DIET, IT'S JUST NOT AN ISSUE.

>> Bonnie: FIBER IS?

WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR FIBER FROM?

>> Tracye: YES, YOUR FIBER FROM PLANT BASED FOODS.

ALL OF THOSE PLANT BASED FOODS THAT WE TALKED ABOUT THE BEANS, THE NUTS, THE WHOLE GRAINS,THE FRUITS AND THE VEGETABLES.

YOU DON'T GET FIBER FROM PROCESSED GRAINS, REFINED GRAINS, YOU DON'T GET FIBER FROM MEAT.

SO IT'S A LACK OF FIBER THAT IS THE REAL ISSUE.

WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR FIBER IS THE QUESTION THAT WE SHOULD BE ASKING.

>> Bonnie: THE HISTORY OF THE FOOD INDUSTRY, WHY DO WE HAVE SUCH A POISON FILLED FOOD INDUSTRY IN THIS COUNTRY?

WHY, YOU KNOW, I GAS PRESERVATIVES PRESERVATIVES, I GUESS SUGAR, I GUESS FATS, BUT I EVEN, I FEED BIRDS OUTSIDE MY WINDOW.

THEY PUT SUET, WHICH IS BEEF RENDERING INTO BIRD, WILD BIRD FOOD, BIRDS DON'T EAT COWS.

I MEAN, WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE SOME PERSON NOW THAT I'VE HAD GONE INTO WILD BIRDS FOOD STORES AND SAID, WHY IN GOD'S NAME WOULD YOU PUT BEEF IN FOOD FOR A BIRD?

>> Tracye: RIGHT.

AND THEY SAY, WELL, IT GIVES THEM MORE ENERGY, THEY LIKE IT BETTER.

>> Tracye: I MEAN, ITS PROFIT.

YOU KNOW, IT'S THE FOOD INDUSTRY IS, IT'S YOU KNOW, WE'RE IN A CAPITALIST SYSTEM THAT IS ABOUT EXPLOITATION EXTRACTION AND GETTING FOLKS ADDICTED TO A PRODUCT, RIGHT?

THAT HOLDS UP, HOLDS TRUE IN THE FOOD INDUSTRY, IT'S THE SAME THING.

THE INDUSTRY PUTS PROFIT OVER PEOPLE PROFIT OVER HEALTH, AND THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE'S JOB IS TO PROMOTE THE AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRY.

AND SO WHAT THAT MEANS IS YOU HAVE SUBSIDIES THAT GO TO THESE HUGE INDUSTRIES, THESE HUGE FAST FOOD COMPANIES, THESE HUGE AGRICULTURAL COMPANIES TO SUBSIDIZE THE TRUE COST OF THESE PRODUCTS, RIGHT?

SO THAT'S WHY THESE FOODS ARE CHEAPER, THE INGREDIENTS, THE INPUTS ARE SUBSIDIZED.

AND SO IT MAKES IT SEEM THAT THE COST IS CHEAPER, BUT WE'RE ACTUALLY PAYING FOR IT IN TERMS OF OUR HEALTH.

SO IT'S UP TO US TO, TO CHALLENGE THAT AND TO ORGANIZE AROUND THAT TO MAKE CHANGES IN THE INDUSTRY.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FROM THE CORPORATION'S, IT'S HAPPENING, IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN FROM US.

THE ONE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND FOR YOUR WONDERFUL BOOKS IN THE INFORMATION YOU ARE SPREADING AND ALL BEST OF LUCK TO YOU AND YOUR CAREER MOVING FORWARD.

>> Tracye: THANK YOU.

GREAT TALKING TO YOU, BONNIE.

>> Bonnie: THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO THE CONTRARY, PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER, AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE PBS.ORG./TO THE CONTRARY AND WORTH YOU AGREE OR THING TO THE CONTRARY.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR SEE AN CONTRARY.

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